Oh how I wonder this too Christine.... "I wonder about how to break through religious people’s psyches and say “Hey, what if you’re not a worthless piece of scum apart from Jesus after all?”" I think holding beliefs like that causes actual psychological and physiological damage... And the breakthrough to the other side, to realizing there is wholeness and goodness in yourself, is not an easy process. It requires a leap of faith in itself to even begin to think, "wait, maybe this sin/retribution framework is actually harmful."
It reminds me of an older woman I knew through church, who was a gentle and caring person to me for several years and whom I really respect... But one of her favorite topics to talk about in Bible studies was how bad sin really is. About "the sinfulness of sin" and how "amazing" it is that God could love such rotten sinners like us! For her it somehow inspired her to praise God for his grace. But for me this framework only made me think less of myself, not any better of God. But I have friends who make this their life motto, like this lyric from a worship song, "My sins they are many, his mercy is more." I guess thinking less of yourself can inspire you to think of a God who's so much better, you can't even imagine it... But it becomes so detached from any real definitions that it's just a vague sense of awe. Now it just breaks my heart at how deeply this runs, and I wonder too, how expansive the level of healing would have to be for any of this to change.
It is really such a leap of faith to question if the whole thing is more harmful than we realized, because (we believed that) so much was at stake!
Yes, I know people like that too! Who don't seem bothered by thinking of themselves as rotten sinners who are just lucky that God loves them/us. And who are really nice people themselves -- maybe trying to get away from the nagging belief that they're pretty rotten at the core so perhaps they're compensating?? It does seem unfortunate that to (they think) have such awe-full view of God, they have to think of themselves as awful...
Yes!! I know so many people who would answer the question “how are you” with “better than I deserve” 😳😳 and they were people who really emphasized GRACE, but I have to think that deep down there is still some self loathing and self punishing happening, even if it’s not seen on the surface. I still find my view of God to be one of “more mercy” and unconditional compassion, but not because I’m the worst sinner and nothing I do is good - but because I’m human!
I definitely remember hearing that story about the candy cane as a kid. And I am so sensitive to what my kids hear too. It's hard to know when it's our stuff and when it will affect our kids. I could tell you lots of stories of when I got triggered and upset, but I couldn't tell if affected my kids most of the time. But this one did affect my kids: my 5 year old daughter started worrying that the bathwater was going to turn to blood after hearing about the plagues in Egypt.
There's so much unlearning to do to be open to self-trust isn't there? It has taken me about as long as it took to not trust myself to fully trust myself again (20 years indoctrination, 20 years learning to trust myself again.)
For me learning that emotions are clues instead of problems (i.e. indictments against us) was a turning point for me.
If you want to hear what this looks like for me as a therapist and coach, I often start with noticing something that doesn't have a sin-judgment attached to it, like can you tell what it's like in your body when you think about a food you like or a food you don't like? What's the difference? Can you listen to that in your life - what you like or don't like? And education around our bodies are meant to tell us when they don't feel safe. Would it be okay to notice that without shutting it down so fast?
Thank you for this space and your reflections, Christine. It feels so good to not be alone in this.
Oh gosh, the plagues of Egypt are actually SO scary to learn about if you take it seriously! Your poor daughter!
Yes, so much to un-develop self-mistrust and then to develop self-trust!
Dr. Laura Anderson writes about that in her book that just came out about religious trauma! Starting with something neutral and helping your body/nervous system learn how to just make any kind of choice that feels good!
Someone had suggested that movie to me too and so I watched it with my 3 year old. I could not get through it! I got so triggered I turned it off after about 10 minutes. I
You’re right about that connection. The level of mental gymnastics required to justify this view of humanity gives way to so many other problematic beliefs. I remember how it used to make sense, and it’s kind of horrifying.
Oof. I definitely respond with anger. And then I do a protective deep dive on Christian fascism to “prove” to my brain that they are wrong. I’m slowly becoming aware of my patterns and able to just breathe instead. Last year my kids wanted to watch the animated “Star” movie (they had watched it with my parents, but it has a bunch of big actors in it so I thought it was fine)...it really was just the Bethlehem story, but I was so triggered!! I had to leave the room. I think it was because it was such a contextless story being told to kids, which touches all my bruises about being taught a white-washed, contextless history about basically everything. Christmas is hard, and I try to let my anger be a shield for my kids (and kids everywhere!) from a really dehumanizing and violent view of things.
I feel the anger + intellectualizing 👀😅 Breathing - what a simple gift for the nervous system.
I'm not familiar with the Star movie! And maybe it's a good thing, I guess! Anger really does offer us really important clues that something is worth protecting, if we just get inquisitive about what and how.
I remember that story and thinking it was cute. But of course it was the earliest indoctrination for the smallest of children, starting them down the path of believing Jesus was savagely beaten and died because of them. How sick even the simplest Christian stories are!! I haven’t been in a church since 2020, so I don’t know how it would affect me, but I know I could not regularly attend any church that teaches blood atonement. Are there “Christian” churches that only teach love and healing and direct mystical connection with god?
I’m done with church anyway so it’s a moot question. And being done with church and religion is what gives me hope for the evolution of humankind. People under 40 don’t generally go to church. I hope those generations seek private spirituality that is deeper, more loving, and more all-encompassing, including love for all beings and all creation. As you said in different words, Christine, how can we kill our siblings if we see them all and ourselves as loved and treasured by god?
I know it's a moot point for you (and you definitely don't need any church!) but for those who wonder, yes I think there are churches that don't teach blood atonement and teach what we would think of as the actual good stuff!
I hope the evolution of our species involves these good things you speak of! 🙏
Oh I do remember that description of the candy cane. Ugh. I think about sending my kid to a Sunday school or church event but all the stories are just so problematic. I don't want his understanding of God to have those foundations.
I know! I feel like the conservative Christian but in reverse, wanting to vet out curriculums or churches to make sure there's nothing in there that might harm my kid or teach them the "wrong" (in my eyes!) things...
Oh how I wonder this too Christine.... "I wonder about how to break through religious people’s psyches and say “Hey, what if you’re not a worthless piece of scum apart from Jesus after all?”" I think holding beliefs like that causes actual psychological and physiological damage... And the breakthrough to the other side, to realizing there is wholeness and goodness in yourself, is not an easy process. It requires a leap of faith in itself to even begin to think, "wait, maybe this sin/retribution framework is actually harmful."
It reminds me of an older woman I knew through church, who was a gentle and caring person to me for several years and whom I really respect... But one of her favorite topics to talk about in Bible studies was how bad sin really is. About "the sinfulness of sin" and how "amazing" it is that God could love such rotten sinners like us! For her it somehow inspired her to praise God for his grace. But for me this framework only made me think less of myself, not any better of God. But I have friends who make this their life motto, like this lyric from a worship song, "My sins they are many, his mercy is more." I guess thinking less of yourself can inspire you to think of a God who's so much better, you can't even imagine it... But it becomes so detached from any real definitions that it's just a vague sense of awe. Now it just breaks my heart at how deeply this runs, and I wonder too, how expansive the level of healing would have to be for any of this to change.
It is really such a leap of faith to question if the whole thing is more harmful than we realized, because (we believed that) so much was at stake!
Yes, I know people like that too! Who don't seem bothered by thinking of themselves as rotten sinners who are just lucky that God loves them/us. And who are really nice people themselves -- maybe trying to get away from the nagging belief that they're pretty rotten at the core so perhaps they're compensating?? It does seem unfortunate that to (they think) have such awe-full view of God, they have to think of themselves as awful...
Yes!! I know so many people who would answer the question “how are you” with “better than I deserve” 😳😳 and they were people who really emphasized GRACE, but I have to think that deep down there is still some self loathing and self punishing happening, even if it’s not seen on the surface. I still find my view of God to be one of “more mercy” and unconditional compassion, but not because I’m the worst sinner and nothing I do is good - but because I’m human!
Yes exactly! There is just something sinister about how reformed theology made grace transactional - only given to those who believe the right things.
Which makes it not grace. A conditional gift is not a gift.
I definitely remember hearing that story about the candy cane as a kid. And I am so sensitive to what my kids hear too. It's hard to know when it's our stuff and when it will affect our kids. I could tell you lots of stories of when I got triggered and upset, but I couldn't tell if affected my kids most of the time. But this one did affect my kids: my 5 year old daughter started worrying that the bathwater was going to turn to blood after hearing about the plagues in Egypt.
There's so much unlearning to do to be open to self-trust isn't there? It has taken me about as long as it took to not trust myself to fully trust myself again (20 years indoctrination, 20 years learning to trust myself again.)
For me learning that emotions are clues instead of problems (i.e. indictments against us) was a turning point for me.
If you want to hear what this looks like for me as a therapist and coach, I often start with noticing something that doesn't have a sin-judgment attached to it, like can you tell what it's like in your body when you think about a food you like or a food you don't like? What's the difference? Can you listen to that in your life - what you like or don't like? And education around our bodies are meant to tell us when they don't feel safe. Would it be okay to notice that without shutting it down so fast?
Thank you for this space and your reflections, Christine. It feels so good to not be alone in this.
Oh gosh, the plagues of Egypt are actually SO scary to learn about if you take it seriously! Your poor daughter!
Yes, so much to un-develop self-mistrust and then to develop self-trust!
Dr. Laura Anderson writes about that in her book that just came out about religious trauma! Starting with something neutral and helping your body/nervous system learn how to just make any kind of choice that feels good!
Thanks for being here, Catherine!
Someone had suggested that movie to me too and so I watched it with my 3 year old. I could not get through it! I got so triggered I turned it off after about 10 minutes. I
You’re right about that connection. The level of mental gymnastics required to justify this view of humanity gives way to so many other problematic beliefs. I remember how it used to make sense, and it’s kind of horrifying.
Right? Used to feel so straightforward and obvious, and now... whew. 😳
Oof. I definitely respond with anger. And then I do a protective deep dive on Christian fascism to “prove” to my brain that they are wrong. I’m slowly becoming aware of my patterns and able to just breathe instead. Last year my kids wanted to watch the animated “Star” movie (they had watched it with my parents, but it has a bunch of big actors in it so I thought it was fine)...it really was just the Bethlehem story, but I was so triggered!! I had to leave the room. I think it was because it was such a contextless story being told to kids, which touches all my bruises about being taught a white-washed, contextless history about basically everything. Christmas is hard, and I try to let my anger be a shield for my kids (and kids everywhere!) from a really dehumanizing and violent view of things.
I feel the anger + intellectualizing 👀😅 Breathing - what a simple gift for the nervous system.
I'm not familiar with the Star movie! And maybe it's a good thing, I guess! Anger really does offer us really important clues that something is worth protecting, if we just get inquisitive about what and how.
I remember that story and thinking it was cute. But of course it was the earliest indoctrination for the smallest of children, starting them down the path of believing Jesus was savagely beaten and died because of them. How sick even the simplest Christian stories are!! I haven’t been in a church since 2020, so I don’t know how it would affect me, but I know I could not regularly attend any church that teaches blood atonement. Are there “Christian” churches that only teach love and healing and direct mystical connection with god?
I’m done with church anyway so it’s a moot question. And being done with church and religion is what gives me hope for the evolution of humankind. People under 40 don’t generally go to church. I hope those generations seek private spirituality that is deeper, more loving, and more all-encompassing, including love for all beings and all creation. As you said in different words, Christine, how can we kill our siblings if we see them all and ourselves as loved and treasured by god?
I know it's a moot point for you (and you definitely don't need any church!) but for those who wonder, yes I think there are churches that don't teach blood atonement and teach what we would think of as the actual good stuff!
I hope the evolution of our species involves these good things you speak of! 🙏
Oh I do remember that description of the candy cane. Ugh. I think about sending my kid to a Sunday school or church event but all the stories are just so problematic. I don't want his understanding of God to have those foundations.
I know! I feel like the conservative Christian but in reverse, wanting to vet out curriculums or churches to make sure there's nothing in there that might harm my kid or teach them the "wrong" (in my eyes!) things...