This post sparked such an explosion of thoughts for me. I spent about a decade (2012-2023ish) heavily involved with progressive communities – co-op schools, my local UU congregation, a co-op pagan family camp, informal co-housing, and a CSA – and one of the things they had in common was quasi-salvific rhetoric about the value of community. I still agree with it intellectually, except now whenever I hear communities touting the value of community, my emotional reaction is somewhere between an eye-roll and a danger response, like part of me thinks community is going to mug me if it finds me alone in a dark alley.
I’m used to thinking of this as a personal problem: burnout, alienation, and something that happens because I’m probably autistic – I say yes to work because it’s a more satisfying way of socializing than less structured group events are. I like working with other people, and a lot of the work I did is stuff I’m proud of and glad to have done. Maybe all the flowery rhetoric about the importance of community encouraged me to hope for too much, though? Too many testimonials about found-family and lifelong friends, too many promises of growing into the kind of person you want to be, too much spin about how great programs or events were, too many guarantees that everyone counts, and little of it mirrored my and my kids’ actual experiences. Some of the promises weren’t even things the communities said, just promises that this kind of rhetoric convinced me to make to myself. I wonder how common my experience is and what additional competencies or conditions someone like me would need to sustain a commitment to community.
But just now thinking about the problem with your blog’s frame of religious trauma in mind, something new occurred to me: what if my burnout / alienation isn’t just a personal problem -- what if it’s a potential inherent in the rhetoric? A likelihood even? Part of how progressive communities inspire support is by talking up the power of community, and I don’t think anyone I knew was doing it in bad faith or trying to take advantage of people, but the rhetoric was urgent and ungrounded in a way that maybe made it harder to work through problems and sustain long-term commitment, given that my family’s experiences mostly hadn’t been wonderful or transformative. If pro-community rhetoric overstates its case, what long term effects does that have?
I’m not sure where I’m going with this, and I’m not looking for you to have answers -- mostly I’m glad you wrote this post that got me thinking, and hope I haven't imposed too much by writing this lengthy of a comment. If you have good feelings about community, I don’t want to quash those, and I don’t want to stop you from talking about it, or from being motivated by pro-community values. I mean, I’m still trying to convince my tween that having more connections to people makes life richer and helps us come alive, and that when classmates at her new school ask if she wants to eat lunch together, she should say yes more often instead of reading a book.
Also, John Green! The tween and I watch his new episode of Crash Course: Religions together ever Tuesday after school, but it hadn’t occurred to me to explore what he’s done besides Crash Course.
I really appreciate your reflections! (and no, not an imposition! I love to know that what I've written inspired someone's thoughts).
What you're saying is really interesting -- like looking to community (or... the IDEA of community??) as a a panacea for fixing everything? And it can be touted in that kind of way without acknowledging how messy and complicated it actually is to enact community, and feelings will be hurt and people will be overworked and humans will still be doing their human things.
I would say that I'm coming from the other end, where for most of the 6 years I've lived in this town I've felt really lonely (moved here, had a baby, had a pandemic and another baby, and am just kind of a shy person in general). So from that end of the spectrum, starting to get connected feels so wonderful! But it does quickly become clear that the idea of community is something entirely different from the practice of community, and while parts of it are really great and enjoyable, the sustaining of it can be hard work and conflictual and not-great-fun.
I like what you're teaching your tween (or trying to!) and I do think we as a society are losing touch with the importance of really being in one another's lives in a real-life way. (and very few people have thrown yourself into community efforts the way you did for a decade, so most people don't experience that burnout). So... what am I saying. Balance? That we shouldn't be naive and starry eyed about "community" solving all problems? I guess so!
Also I had no idea Crash Course: Religions was a thing, but I just looked it up and it's on PBS even?!? Excellent! I am going to watch them!
Thank you for this thoughtful response – I agree with everything you’re saying.
When I’m optimistic, the ways that community is hard seem potentially worthwhile, like they really are something that can deepen us. But like other hard things, that works best when you have time and support, not when you’re already running at full capacity. And I get the sense that most people I know under 50 are running at close to full capacity most of the time, whether from time demands or executive function demands or both. So that means some of the same factors that make fantasies of community appealing also make it harder to have actual healthy communities? I guess that’s hardly a dynamic unique to community. This conversation is making me want to pay closer attention to how fantasies of community and practices of community interact, though, and also to get more nittygritty historical perspective on how those interactions have changed over time.
Crash Course Religions is like an intro religious studies course, so it probably won't have much new for you, but you might get the kind of buzz that a chess aficionado gets from seeing which moves a chess master chooses. I got all the John Green books from the library this weekend, and The Fault In Our Stars is so good so far!
I love John Green! Hank too - their podcast, vlog, and general work is/has been a touchstone of sanity and goodness for years. We even have a John Green “Pizza John” rug hanging on the wall that weirds people out.
Enjoyed the wide-ranging exploration of the universe and our place in it. Current events bring all the questions you raised into focus at once, which feels overwhelming. Does being present mean sitting with our or others' emotions here and now? Walking in and being present in nature and earth and stars now? Trying to act against imminent dictatorship now? Trying to connect with our deepest selves and understand our evolution and the human expansion of consciousness now? Really it's all of the above, and that's so much to take in. It's OK to think about all that, but really, all we can do is what is placed in front of us and feels right to engage in at this moment. That's the secret to not getting overwhelmed--just do what's in front of us right now.
It's all of it! And it's just what's in front of us! Feels like a contradiction but it's really not. We can be aware of what's going on but also narrow our focus and actions to what is/might be in front of us. I love your reflection!
I love the Green brothers! John’s take on religion and the current times is so refreshing, especially after being surrounded by evangelicals my whole life. Connecting IRL is more important than ever. We joined a secular inclusive co-op last year, and it’s been my “saving grace” to have people who don’t think I’m crazy and are as worried about the country as I am.
Ooh, your co-op sounds so great!! And it really makes such a difference to be with people just as worried about the state of our country as we are (because we’re NOT crazy or overdramatic!)!
I'm so glad you're connecting more with others IRL! This work can be isolating, not to mention vicariously traumatic. Finding ways to connect with beauty/nature/our own truth is absolutely essential. I sang Mendelssohn last night with 160 or so of my friends, and it felt so good in my heart. Music is my religion!
Here's one from a few years back at St. John the Divine, where our conductor is the organist and director of music. I only joined Oratorio Society of New York in January, but the chorus has a long history of association with the Carnegie family and New York City. December 2024 was the 150th anniversary of the annual performance of "Messiah" at Carnegie Hall! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9kwWTDJUEs
I am waaaaaay behind in my reading (clearly!) but thank you for sharing this. Those John Green quotes are blowing my mind, especially, "humans have the power to destroy ourselves, but not to save ourselves.” DANG. I might need to pick up some of his books to read to my kids :)
This post sparked such an explosion of thoughts for me. I spent about a decade (2012-2023ish) heavily involved with progressive communities – co-op schools, my local UU congregation, a co-op pagan family camp, informal co-housing, and a CSA – and one of the things they had in common was quasi-salvific rhetoric about the value of community. I still agree with it intellectually, except now whenever I hear communities touting the value of community, my emotional reaction is somewhere between an eye-roll and a danger response, like part of me thinks community is going to mug me if it finds me alone in a dark alley.
I’m used to thinking of this as a personal problem: burnout, alienation, and something that happens because I’m probably autistic – I say yes to work because it’s a more satisfying way of socializing than less structured group events are. I like working with other people, and a lot of the work I did is stuff I’m proud of and glad to have done. Maybe all the flowery rhetoric about the importance of community encouraged me to hope for too much, though? Too many testimonials about found-family and lifelong friends, too many promises of growing into the kind of person you want to be, too much spin about how great programs or events were, too many guarantees that everyone counts, and little of it mirrored my and my kids’ actual experiences. Some of the promises weren’t even things the communities said, just promises that this kind of rhetoric convinced me to make to myself. I wonder how common my experience is and what additional competencies or conditions someone like me would need to sustain a commitment to community.
But just now thinking about the problem with your blog’s frame of religious trauma in mind, something new occurred to me: what if my burnout / alienation isn’t just a personal problem -- what if it’s a potential inherent in the rhetoric? A likelihood even? Part of how progressive communities inspire support is by talking up the power of community, and I don’t think anyone I knew was doing it in bad faith or trying to take advantage of people, but the rhetoric was urgent and ungrounded in a way that maybe made it harder to work through problems and sustain long-term commitment, given that my family’s experiences mostly hadn’t been wonderful or transformative. If pro-community rhetoric overstates its case, what long term effects does that have?
I’m not sure where I’m going with this, and I’m not looking for you to have answers -- mostly I’m glad you wrote this post that got me thinking, and hope I haven't imposed too much by writing this lengthy of a comment. If you have good feelings about community, I don’t want to quash those, and I don’t want to stop you from talking about it, or from being motivated by pro-community values. I mean, I’m still trying to convince my tween that having more connections to people makes life richer and helps us come alive, and that when classmates at her new school ask if she wants to eat lunch together, she should say yes more often instead of reading a book.
Also, John Green! The tween and I watch his new episode of Crash Course: Religions together ever Tuesday after school, but it hadn’t occurred to me to explore what he’s done besides Crash Course.
I really appreciate your reflections! (and no, not an imposition! I love to know that what I've written inspired someone's thoughts).
What you're saying is really interesting -- like looking to community (or... the IDEA of community??) as a a panacea for fixing everything? And it can be touted in that kind of way without acknowledging how messy and complicated it actually is to enact community, and feelings will be hurt and people will be overworked and humans will still be doing their human things.
I would say that I'm coming from the other end, where for most of the 6 years I've lived in this town I've felt really lonely (moved here, had a baby, had a pandemic and another baby, and am just kind of a shy person in general). So from that end of the spectrum, starting to get connected feels so wonderful! But it does quickly become clear that the idea of community is something entirely different from the practice of community, and while parts of it are really great and enjoyable, the sustaining of it can be hard work and conflictual and not-great-fun.
I like what you're teaching your tween (or trying to!) and I do think we as a society are losing touch with the importance of really being in one another's lives in a real-life way. (and very few people have thrown yourself into community efforts the way you did for a decade, so most people don't experience that burnout). So... what am I saying. Balance? That we shouldn't be naive and starry eyed about "community" solving all problems? I guess so!
Also I had no idea Crash Course: Religions was a thing, but I just looked it up and it's on PBS even?!? Excellent! I am going to watch them!
Thank you for this thoughtful response – I agree with everything you’re saying.
When I’m optimistic, the ways that community is hard seem potentially worthwhile, like they really are something that can deepen us. But like other hard things, that works best when you have time and support, not when you’re already running at full capacity. And I get the sense that most people I know under 50 are running at close to full capacity most of the time, whether from time demands or executive function demands or both. So that means some of the same factors that make fantasies of community appealing also make it harder to have actual healthy communities? I guess that’s hardly a dynamic unique to community. This conversation is making me want to pay closer attention to how fantasies of community and practices of community interact, though, and also to get more nittygritty historical perspective on how those interactions have changed over time.
Crash Course Religions is like an intro religious studies course, so it probably won't have much new for you, but you might get the kind of buzz that a chess aficionado gets from seeing which moves a chess master chooses. I got all the John Green books from the library this weekend, and The Fault In Our Stars is so good so far!
I love John Green! Hank too - their podcast, vlog, and general work is/has been a touchstone of sanity and goodness for years. We even have a John Green “Pizza John” rug hanging on the wall that weirds people out.
Haha love it! I want to get more into their stuff!
Enjoyed the wide-ranging exploration of the universe and our place in it. Current events bring all the questions you raised into focus at once, which feels overwhelming. Does being present mean sitting with our or others' emotions here and now? Walking in and being present in nature and earth and stars now? Trying to act against imminent dictatorship now? Trying to connect with our deepest selves and understand our evolution and the human expansion of consciousness now? Really it's all of the above, and that's so much to take in. It's OK to think about all that, but really, all we can do is what is placed in front of us and feels right to engage in at this moment. That's the secret to not getting overwhelmed--just do what's in front of us right now.
It's all of it! And it's just what's in front of us! Feels like a contradiction but it's really not. We can be aware of what's going on but also narrow our focus and actions to what is/might be in front of us. I love your reflection!
I love the Green brothers! John’s take on religion and the current times is so refreshing, especially after being surrounded by evangelicals my whole life. Connecting IRL is more important than ever. We joined a secular inclusive co-op last year, and it’s been my “saving grace” to have people who don’t think I’m crazy and are as worried about the country as I am.
Ooh, your co-op sounds so great!! And it really makes such a difference to be with people just as worried about the state of our country as we are (because we’re NOT crazy or overdramatic!)!
I'm so glad you're connecting more with others IRL! This work can be isolating, not to mention vicariously traumatic. Finding ways to connect with beauty/nature/our own truth is absolutely essential. I sang Mendelssohn last night with 160 or so of my friends, and it felt so good in my heart. Music is my religion!
Thank you; me too, and yes this with really can be isolating!
Your choir and concert sound so lovely!! Any chance there’s a YouTube video floating around somewhere of you all?!?
Here's one from a few years back at St. John the Divine, where our conductor is the organist and director of music. I only joined Oratorio Society of New York in January, but the chorus has a long history of association with the Carnegie family and New York City. December 2024 was the 150th anniversary of the annual performance of "Messiah" at Carnegie Hall! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9kwWTDJUEs
I am waaaaaay behind in my reading (clearly!) but thank you for sharing this. Those John Green quotes are blowing my mind, especially, "humans have the power to destroy ourselves, but not to save ourselves.” DANG. I might need to pick up some of his books to read to my kids :)