I remember when I awakened to the realization that human parents were more loving and forgiving than the God that I was taught about. No matter what my child did, even if they were awful things, even if I had to separate myself from my child for very good reasons, I would hope for repentance and recovery. Even if I could not have the relationship that I had hoped for in this world, I would long for one in the afterlife. So the concept of Hell did not make sense to me. It only makes sense when seen through the eyes of humans who have been severely wronged by someone and want them to be punished in the afterlife. Ultimately I feel much safer with a god who would never create Hell, or allow Hell to exist, even for those who have done evil things. Thanks Christine for your well formed thoughts.
"Even if I could not have the relationship that I had hoped for in this world, I would long for one in the afterlife." Right?? 100% agree Hell is a human creation, meeting our desires for vengeance!! Thank you for your comment!
Excellent observations. My upbringing in the church is exactly what you are describing. It has scarred me psychologically and continues to do so. Most, if not all “religious “ people, think what you have written, but are too scared to speak out, or buck the system. So well done for a well written observation and I look forward to more like this, and even conversations?
Thank you, Gavin! I do wonder about how many very pious people do think the things I've written but only at a mostly unconscious level -- repression is a pretty well-honed skill in these groups...
It's good to have you here and I look forward to more exchanges and conversations also!
Yes to all of this! I have been “deconstructing” (more like demolishing) my my Christian upbringing since 2015. I remember a few years into it i was challenged to think about a literal heaven and hell. And I realized that if god loves my children more than I do (bc that is was I was taught) and there is absolutely nothing either of them could do for me to choose to send them to hell for eternity then either 1) God is not loving and not anything I want to be apart of, or 2) a literal hell cannot be real. I don’t know where I stand with god most days, but I no longer believe in a literal hell. It is incredible to see god through the lens of parenting.
So good to see someone putting clearly into this dissonance into words, thank you Christine. I particularly appreciate the note about this all being our thoughts about what God is like, from someone who has spent too much of my life trying to work out the ‘truth’ that made sense of it all.
Thank you! Oh goodness yes, once I came to the realization that nobody ACTUALLY knows (even though growing up the church acted like they 100% knew!), we’re just trying to make sense of things, it was so freeing.
As you know (but maybe others don't) i was brought up Catholic. I'm not defending Catholicism (if I felt I needed to, I would probably still be one) but they have got this "I am always a sinner" thing worked out (for nefarious reasons of their own, no doubt.) 😁
In Confession, your sins are forgiven, past sins anyway, and you can start off with a clean slate. That is a tremendous psychological boost, which (maybe) Evangelicals don't have?
Thank you! Hmmm interesting about the clean slate thing. Because technically evangelicals also believe we have a clean slate once we ask forgiveness... but clearly lots of us struggled to really believe that. I wonder if there's a stronger psychological effect if you're confessing out loud to another human who can tell you you're forgiven? I bet there is!
Yes, I think there's something in that. Evangelical culture is pretty vague. I came into it as an adult but there doesn't seem to be any formal, church occasion at which repentance/forgiveness is addressed.
Definitely not in the regular evangelical tradition -- many mainline churches (I think... Episcopal? And others?) have that community confession piece built into the liturgy, which is such an important part!
I was both Protestant and then Catholic. Confession did provide a wonderful psychological outlet, but there were two problems. Absolution lasted anywhere from 30 minutes to a day or two, and as soon as you sinned again (because you’re human and fallible!), you felt like crap again. The other problem was getting an unkind priest for confession who shamed you--it happened to me twice and was horrible!!
Oh man that's so sad! Though I guess... it does take a lot of maturity to be kind and nonjudgmental when people tell you their hidden shameful (if they are) secrets, and I suppose that's not necessarily a priestly requirement??
Good question about priestly training—I don’t know how they are trained, but the vast majority are very kind. The ones who aren’t may just have had a bad day hearing the same old stuff all day long. I stopped going to confession after the last time it happened, felt very wounded, and I think that was actually the beginning of the end of Christianity for me.
Bingo! And thanks again, Christine! Even as a child, I thought this portrayal of God as all loving but vindictive was bizarre to say the least. And yes, a lot of people are damaged by this portrayal of God, and by parents who model their parenting after this terrible notion of a God that, to them, justifies abuse of children by example.
Thank you, Barb! "Bizarre" is an excellent starting place for this portrayal. I wish I could have recognized the cognitive dissonance as a kid -- instead, I just had to shove it down and pretend like it all made sense. :( I hope to write in the future about parenting models based on this kind of theology!
You're right. There are problems. Any good thing can be abused. But as for only lasting 30 seconds, at least you don't have to worry today about that time ten years ago you stole money from the cookie jar. Interesting that you took the reverse journey from myself - first Catholic, then Protestant .
Good point, Pamela. At least we didn’t have to let old sins that had been absolved trouble us. I think I still felt psychologically guilty for all of it though. The problem regardless of Judeo-Christian “brand” is the very idea of sin, which makes you feel guilty basically for breathing and taking up space as a sinner! I had to leave all but the concept of an unconditionally loving divine being behind before I found peace.
Deeply relate to this, as I grew up in a similar religious tradition. This morning, my therapist and I had just talked about the idea of internalizing blame as a child, so I felt really validated when I read your post. Thank you for bravely creating a space for this important conversation.
Hi Kandi! I’m glad you’re here and glad this resonates. I definitely plan to do some pieces on the internalized shame we’re all walking around with, so hope you stick around!!
My paternal grandmother usually spoke in third person, and during the 'secret' times she was sexually abusing me, she often said, "Remember, Grandma loves you just like Jesus." I was well into my adulthood - and therapy - before I could say the word 'Jesus' out loud without shuddering. Religious abuse is real. Thank you for writing this.
Oh Catherine, I'm so sorry that your grandmother did that to you. No wonder you couldn't even say the word Jesus for so long. Thank you for sharing a piece of your story.
I am a former Christian fundamentalist. I appreciate you writing this article. I went the route of Christian Universalism when I realized hell was added later to control humanity with fear. I am no longer a believer in salvation outside of myself or scapegoatism which is the foundation of Christianity.
Jan 16, 2023·edited Jan 17, 2023Liked by Christine Greenwald
This article is excellent, Christine, and so are your readers’ comments! You said the quiet part out loud--again! 😄 What kind of god threatens his children with eternal abandonment and torture?!! Or tortures and sacrifices a child for other children?! Or orders whole nations of his children slaughtered so that others of his children can take their land--doesn’t he love ALL the children he created?!! Thankfully I had some experiences in worship and meditation that convinced me god really is all-loving, and that the angry, violent, abusive, genocidal, narcissistic god of the Bible was a human fiction. It took time, but I’ve been able to leave the fiction and trauma behind and move on to a more positive spirituality. I hope your articles will help others find their way as well. Thanks for what you’re doing!
Thank you, Chuck! You probably remember the original version of this from like a year ago or so, but I figured it deserved to be brought out and said all over again! I truly love that it was your personal experiences that changed your views on what god is like. Can't wait to write an article or two about narcissism and g/God...
The sinner’s prayer over and over again. Yup. How hard is it to have a good sense of self esteem if you keep reminding yourself what a wretch you are?
And if you're literally not allowed to feel good about yourself or that's considered prideful!
I remember when I awakened to the realization that human parents were more loving and forgiving than the God that I was taught about. No matter what my child did, even if they were awful things, even if I had to separate myself from my child for very good reasons, I would hope for repentance and recovery. Even if I could not have the relationship that I had hoped for in this world, I would long for one in the afterlife. So the concept of Hell did not make sense to me. It only makes sense when seen through the eyes of humans who have been severely wronged by someone and want them to be punished in the afterlife. Ultimately I feel much safer with a god who would never create Hell, or allow Hell to exist, even for those who have done evil things. Thanks Christine for your well formed thoughts.
"Even if I could not have the relationship that I had hoped for in this world, I would long for one in the afterlife." Right?? 100% agree Hell is a human creation, meeting our desires for vengeance!! Thank you for your comment!
Excellent observations. My upbringing in the church is exactly what you are describing. It has scarred me psychologically and continues to do so. Most, if not all “religious “ people, think what you have written, but are too scared to speak out, or buck the system. So well done for a well written observation and I look forward to more like this, and even conversations?
Thank you, Gavin! I do wonder about how many very pious people do think the things I've written but only at a mostly unconscious level -- repression is a pretty well-honed skill in these groups...
It's good to have you here and I look forward to more exchanges and conversations also!
This is so good. Sharing! (and I love the word “verboten”)
Thanks for the share, Marla!!
Yes to all of this! I have been “deconstructing” (more like demolishing) my my Christian upbringing since 2015. I remember a few years into it i was challenged to think about a literal heaven and hell. And I realized that if god loves my children more than I do (bc that is was I was taught) and there is absolutely nothing either of them could do for me to choose to send them to hell for eternity then either 1) God is not loving and not anything I want to be apart of, or 2) a literal hell cannot be real. I don’t know where I stand with god most days, but I no longer believe in a literal hell. It is incredible to see god through the lens of parenting.
"deconstructing aka demolishing" could be a great tagline for how some of us do this. Full force.
The cognitive dissonance of believing in a loving god and a literal hell is... a lot. YES to god through the lens of parenting!
So good to see someone putting clearly into this dissonance into words, thank you Christine. I particularly appreciate the note about this all being our thoughts about what God is like, from someone who has spent too much of my life trying to work out the ‘truth’ that made sense of it all.
Thank you! Oh goodness yes, once I came to the realization that nobody ACTUALLY knows (even though growing up the church acted like they 100% knew!), we’re just trying to make sense of things, it was so freeing.
Wow! That explains it so perfectly. Good on you!
As you know (but maybe others don't) i was brought up Catholic. I'm not defending Catholicism (if I felt I needed to, I would probably still be one) but they have got this "I am always a sinner" thing worked out (for nefarious reasons of their own, no doubt.) 😁
In Confession, your sins are forgiven, past sins anyway, and you can start off with a clean slate. That is a tremendous psychological boost, which (maybe) Evangelicals don't have?
Thank you! Hmmm interesting about the clean slate thing. Because technically evangelicals also believe we have a clean slate once we ask forgiveness... but clearly lots of us struggled to really believe that. I wonder if there's a stronger psychological effect if you're confessing out loud to another human who can tell you you're forgiven? I bet there is!
Yes, I think there's something in that. Evangelical culture is pretty vague. I came into it as an adult but there doesn't seem to be any formal, church occasion at which repentance/forgiveness is addressed.
Definitely not in the regular evangelical tradition -- many mainline churches (I think... Episcopal? And others?) have that community confession piece built into the liturgy, which is such an important part!
I was both Protestant and then Catholic. Confession did provide a wonderful psychological outlet, but there were two problems. Absolution lasted anywhere from 30 minutes to a day or two, and as soon as you sinned again (because you’re human and fallible!), you felt like crap again. The other problem was getting an unkind priest for confession who shamed you--it happened to me twice and was horrible!!
Oh man that's so sad! Though I guess... it does take a lot of maturity to be kind and nonjudgmental when people tell you their hidden shameful (if they are) secrets, and I suppose that's not necessarily a priestly requirement??
Good question about priestly training—I don’t know how they are trained, but the vast majority are very kind. The ones who aren’t may just have had a bad day hearing the same old stuff all day long. I stopped going to confession after the last time it happened, felt very wounded, and I think that was actually the beginning of the end of Christianity for me.
Bingo! And thanks again, Christine! Even as a child, I thought this portrayal of God as all loving but vindictive was bizarre to say the least. And yes, a lot of people are damaged by this portrayal of God, and by parents who model their parenting after this terrible notion of a God that, to them, justifies abuse of children by example.
Thank you, Barb! "Bizarre" is an excellent starting place for this portrayal. I wish I could have recognized the cognitive dissonance as a kid -- instead, I just had to shove it down and pretend like it all made sense. :( I hope to write in the future about parenting models based on this kind of theology!
You're right. There are problems. Any good thing can be abused. But as for only lasting 30 seconds, at least you don't have to worry today about that time ten years ago you stole money from the cookie jar. Interesting that you took the reverse journey from myself - first Catholic, then Protestant .
Good point, Pamela. At least we didn’t have to let old sins that had been absolved trouble us. I think I still felt psychologically guilty for all of it though. The problem regardless of Judeo-Christian “brand” is the very idea of sin, which makes you feel guilty basically for breathing and taking up space as a sinner! I had to leave all but the concept of an unconditionally loving divine being behind before I found peace.
Deeply relate to this, as I grew up in a similar religious tradition. This morning, my therapist and I had just talked about the idea of internalizing blame as a child, so I felt really validated when I read your post. Thank you for bravely creating a space for this important conversation.
Hi Kandi! I’m glad you’re here and glad this resonates. I definitely plan to do some pieces on the internalized shame we’re all walking around with, so hope you stick around!!
My paternal grandmother usually spoke in third person, and during the 'secret' times she was sexually abusing me, she often said, "Remember, Grandma loves you just like Jesus." I was well into my adulthood - and therapy - before I could say the word 'Jesus' out loud without shuddering. Religious abuse is real. Thank you for writing this.
Oh Catherine, I'm so sorry that your grandmother did that to you. No wonder you couldn't even say the word Jesus for so long. Thank you for sharing a piece of your story.
I am a former Christian fundamentalist. I appreciate you writing this article. I went the route of Christian Universalism when I realized hell was added later to control humanity with fear. I am no longer a believer in salvation outside of myself or scapegoatism which is the foundation of Christianity.
Thank you for reading and sharing your story!
This article is excellent, Christine, and so are your readers’ comments! You said the quiet part out loud--again! 😄 What kind of god threatens his children with eternal abandonment and torture?!! Or tortures and sacrifices a child for other children?! Or orders whole nations of his children slaughtered so that others of his children can take their land--doesn’t he love ALL the children he created?!! Thankfully I had some experiences in worship and meditation that convinced me god really is all-loving, and that the angry, violent, abusive, genocidal, narcissistic god of the Bible was a human fiction. It took time, but I’ve been able to leave the fiction and trauma behind and move on to a more positive spirituality. I hope your articles will help others find their way as well. Thanks for what you’re doing!
Thank you, Chuck! You probably remember the original version of this from like a year ago or so, but I figured it deserved to be brought out and said all over again! I truly love that it was your personal experiences that changed your views on what god is like. Can't wait to write an article or two about narcissism and g/God...
Have i invited you to my blog? Xianbrainstretch at substack