Hi! I've been following you for a few months (I found you through D.L. Mayfield's substack) but this is my first comment. Thank you so much for your writing! I always find your posts encouraging and they relieve some of the isolation I've felt after leaving my non-affirming church 1.5 years ago.
I liked what you shared here: "I’ve developed a great radar for finding spiritual groups that don’t care so much if you believe the 'right things.'" I think I feel hesitantly curious about plugging into a less-rigid spiritual group after my whole-hearted absorption into conservative Christianity for the first three decades of my life. I feel like I'm not ready yet to put my trust into another spiritual leader, but might be interested in connecting with other people of faith (who don't position themselves as authorities). Anyway, just wanted to share where I'm at and to offer thanks for you putting your thoughts out there for people like me. Please keep writing!
Mar 10, 2023·edited Mar 10, 2023Liked by Christine Greenwald
Thank you for your touching and very transparent share about your faith struggle, Christine. You speak for so many of us. I still struggle with a bit of lingering fear of damnation and of worrying family and friends if I express outright rejection of that one crucial “belief”: Jesus as ”savior.” I equivocate and say, “I’m OK with Jesus,” not admitting to them and maybe not even fully to myself that I no longer see Jesus that way—that we really don’t need a savior or the accompanying mythology to be loved by the divine. (Guess I’m being pretty direct about it here though!). I’ve moved on in my personal spiritual journey and am in a much more uplifting spiritual place, but my hesitancy to admit out loud that I no longer “believe in Jesus” illustrates how difficult it is to get those Christian “worms” out of the brain! Thank you for sharing your journey and for giving us a safe community where we can talk about our “recovery.” 😊
Perhaps this sounds arrogant, but when i find a doctrine i dont like (as in "men are the head of the household) i declare it WRONG and go ahead without it. That said, it took me many years and trials to get to that point but when i realized said doctrine was ruining my marriage, i knew that whatever it meant, that wasnt it.
I relate to this so so much. The earnestness, the diving even deeper through college, the incessant existential questions! “faith wasn’t just some adjective about you but the noun of who you were at the core.” Yes!! I would join you in that church-adjacent, non-Christian book club! LOL
I just wrote a post this week unintentionally processing some ex-fundy stuff and wow, was it hard ...and therapeutic. Take care of yourself this week and thanks for sharing!💜
Oh, this is so true! I remember the first time my therapist told me about enmeshed communities and how the belief = belonging paradigm matched that term. Thank you so much for your writing on this subject!
Mar 10, 2023·edited Mar 10, 2023Liked by Christine Greenwald
You've laid it all out so clearly here. This is exactly the same process I went through: growing up in high-control religion, digging in in college, then questioning more later. While I'm still wrestling with staying in my church or not because I don't agree with the doctrines anymore, I'm starting to think that the more important thing is just to stay, because I'm in a community with people I can relate to, in the same life stage and with similar cultural experiences (especially since it's the only English-speaking church in the city!)
Something you wrote here really strikes a chord with me: how confusing it is that everyone else doesn't struggle with these things??? How people can just be "casual" Christians without wrestling with theological questions on a deep level?? I'm not sure I will ever understand it, especially for these religious groups that believe "belief" is the most important thing -- some people simply accept the beliefs and go on with their lives, and it honestly bewilders me how they can just accept things like eternal conscious torment and "being gay is a sin" without dealing with the underlying moral issues.
Thank you so much for writing this all out -- your writing style is so straightforward and relatable, and really helps me with thinking through some things I took for granted in my childhood, that actually don't make sense looking back.
Mar 10, 2023·edited Mar 10, 2023Liked by Christine Greenwald
Such a helpful, helpful post, Christine. Thank you for this!!!! You manage to say a lot, yet have it be succinct.
I greatly resonated with what you wrote here because the high-control, high-demand, low/no support, hyper-individualistic, mind control-practicing, all-or-nothing, extremist sect I was raised in was all about belief. Belief was everything. It was the decisive factor as to whether you were in or out, whether you were competent enough or not, and whether you were moral enough or not. If you believed correctly and with 100% conscientious earnest, willing sincerity, you were enough/acceptable and if you for any reason did not believe correctly and with 100% conscientious earnest willing sincerity, you were worse than worthless morally and so would have no one to blame but yourself when you found yourself being tortured in hell for all eternity, or so they said.
My sect of origin is filled, still, today, with people who continue to double down to keep themselves believing correctly as they understand it. They are at war with themselves, trying by sheer force of will to white-knuckle keep on clinging to the correct doctrines for dear life even though believing these doctrines offends their logic, and--if they had the courage to do what you did and be honest with themselves--even offends their morals as the humans they are, in terms of what is true of all of us, our basic human goodness. By clinging to the correct doctrines as they understand them, holding their own feet to the flame, they are selling out their values and inducing moral injury in themselves.
They have not yet had the courage to do what you did, which is to stop, step back, start to peer just one nanometer outside of the belief framework and wonder if there is maybe, *maybe* some hint of a hint of a possibility that what they've been taught they ***have to**** care about and ****have to*** believe OR ELSE they'll be doomed and they'll deserve what's coming to them, whether these beliefs might... not.... be.... fully 100% true. That type of miniscule deviation from lock-step acceptance of doctrines is terrifying to undertake. You have to have so, **so** much courage to even think about thinking about doing something like that. How amazing that you did! And then shared with the rest of us about what you've learned on your journey since. I, for one, as one of these others in your orbit, am so grateful to you for your courage and your generosity in sharing what you're learning. What you write always helps me, me with all my D's (ADHD, C-PTSD, GAD, and, well, also a PhD ;).
I have been thinking about you a lot the past few days, actually, with much gratitude, warmth, and tenderness as I continue to make connections between earnest, full-being, what-you-believe-yourself-to-be-at-your-very-core belief on the one hand and what the, um, opposite of that might be. I initially wrote you a long note about my insights here, but then thought the better of it, and harvested it into a Word document. If you're interested in hearing about it, e-mail me, I guess. (The insights center on there being a connection between holding in "correct" beliefs and a phenomenon beginning with the letter "e" that you and I share a phobia about.)
Thank you for all you do. You are not alone and your work is making a difference for others. Much, much care to you.
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on Brian Mclaren’s new book! I saw he is doing a conference here in Portland with a bunch of speakers called Can Christianity Be Saved and I’m pretty sure they don’t have anyone speaking who would say “no”😂😬😫
This is my current struggle in a faith community. My beliefs have changed and I would say are a bit of a slippery soupy mix right now. I am in a church where right beliefs are really important and other Christian traditions are seen with suspicion. I was once like that too. Its difficult as my husband is in a different place. He is less interested in questioning things and has this gift of simple faith. I have grieved over changing beliefs mainly because belonging is so intertwined with 'right' beliefs. I have mostly accepted the leaderships guidance on beliefs and only lately have been honest about the fact I dont actually believe some things but have gone along so that I can belong
I grew up in a church that didn't have that focus on belief - in fact, it emphasised the opposite, the freedom of belief. The idea was, if I understood it correctly, that freedom of belief would let the liturgy do its thing far better. But also, it wasn't one of those churches that wanted a lot of members, it just wanted to be there for the ones there. I keep learning how lucky I was.
That said, I also wonder about religion a lot. It's complicated for me, and perhaps it always will be - and I think I am on the path to learning to be okay with that.
Hi! I've been following you for a few months (I found you through D.L. Mayfield's substack) but this is my first comment. Thank you so much for your writing! I always find your posts encouraging and they relieve some of the isolation I've felt after leaving my non-affirming church 1.5 years ago.
I liked what you shared here: "I’ve developed a great radar for finding spiritual groups that don’t care so much if you believe the 'right things.'" I think I feel hesitantly curious about plugging into a less-rigid spiritual group after my whole-hearted absorption into conservative Christianity for the first three decades of my life. I feel like I'm not ready yet to put my trust into another spiritual leader, but might be interested in connecting with other people of faith (who don't position themselves as authorities). Anyway, just wanted to share where I'm at and to offer thanks for you putting your thoughts out there for people like me. Please keep writing!
Thank you for your touching and very transparent share about your faith struggle, Christine. You speak for so many of us. I still struggle with a bit of lingering fear of damnation and of worrying family and friends if I express outright rejection of that one crucial “belief”: Jesus as ”savior.” I equivocate and say, “I’m OK with Jesus,” not admitting to them and maybe not even fully to myself that I no longer see Jesus that way—that we really don’t need a savior or the accompanying mythology to be loved by the divine. (Guess I’m being pretty direct about it here though!). I’ve moved on in my personal spiritual journey and am in a much more uplifting spiritual place, but my hesitancy to admit out loud that I no longer “believe in Jesus” illustrates how difficult it is to get those Christian “worms” out of the brain! Thank you for sharing your journey and for giving us a safe community where we can talk about our “recovery.” 😊
Perhaps this sounds arrogant, but when i find a doctrine i dont like (as in "men are the head of the household) i declare it WRONG and go ahead without it. That said, it took me many years and trials to get to that point but when i realized said doctrine was ruining my marriage, i knew that whatever it meant, that wasnt it.
I relate to this so so much. The earnestness, the diving even deeper through college, the incessant existential questions! “faith wasn’t just some adjective about you but the noun of who you were at the core.” Yes!! I would join you in that church-adjacent, non-Christian book club! LOL
I just wrote a post this week unintentionally processing some ex-fundy stuff and wow, was it hard ...and therapeutic. Take care of yourself this week and thanks for sharing!💜
Oh, this is so true! I remember the first time my therapist told me about enmeshed communities and how the belief = belonging paradigm matched that term. Thank you so much for your writing on this subject!
Hi! Thank you for writing this. It gave me a lot of comfort.
You've laid it all out so clearly here. This is exactly the same process I went through: growing up in high-control religion, digging in in college, then questioning more later. While I'm still wrestling with staying in my church or not because I don't agree with the doctrines anymore, I'm starting to think that the more important thing is just to stay, because I'm in a community with people I can relate to, in the same life stage and with similar cultural experiences (especially since it's the only English-speaking church in the city!)
Something you wrote here really strikes a chord with me: how confusing it is that everyone else doesn't struggle with these things??? How people can just be "casual" Christians without wrestling with theological questions on a deep level?? I'm not sure I will ever understand it, especially for these religious groups that believe "belief" is the most important thing -- some people simply accept the beliefs and go on with their lives, and it honestly bewilders me how they can just accept things like eternal conscious torment and "being gay is a sin" without dealing with the underlying moral issues.
Thank you so much for writing this all out -- your writing style is so straightforward and relatable, and really helps me with thinking through some things I took for granted in my childhood, that actually don't make sense looking back.
Such a helpful, helpful post, Christine. Thank you for this!!!! You manage to say a lot, yet have it be succinct.
I greatly resonated with what you wrote here because the high-control, high-demand, low/no support, hyper-individualistic, mind control-practicing, all-or-nothing, extremist sect I was raised in was all about belief. Belief was everything. It was the decisive factor as to whether you were in or out, whether you were competent enough or not, and whether you were moral enough or not. If you believed correctly and with 100% conscientious earnest, willing sincerity, you were enough/acceptable and if you for any reason did not believe correctly and with 100% conscientious earnest willing sincerity, you were worse than worthless morally and so would have no one to blame but yourself when you found yourself being tortured in hell for all eternity, or so they said.
My sect of origin is filled, still, today, with people who continue to double down to keep themselves believing correctly as they understand it. They are at war with themselves, trying by sheer force of will to white-knuckle keep on clinging to the correct doctrines for dear life even though believing these doctrines offends their logic, and--if they had the courage to do what you did and be honest with themselves--even offends their morals as the humans they are, in terms of what is true of all of us, our basic human goodness. By clinging to the correct doctrines as they understand them, holding their own feet to the flame, they are selling out their values and inducing moral injury in themselves.
They have not yet had the courage to do what you did, which is to stop, step back, start to peer just one nanometer outside of the belief framework and wonder if there is maybe, *maybe* some hint of a hint of a possibility that what they've been taught they ***have to**** care about and ****have to*** believe OR ELSE they'll be doomed and they'll deserve what's coming to them, whether these beliefs might... not.... be.... fully 100% true. That type of miniscule deviation from lock-step acceptance of doctrines is terrifying to undertake. You have to have so, **so** much courage to even think about thinking about doing something like that. How amazing that you did! And then shared with the rest of us about what you've learned on your journey since. I, for one, as one of these others in your orbit, am so grateful to you for your courage and your generosity in sharing what you're learning. What you write always helps me, me with all my D's (ADHD, C-PTSD, GAD, and, well, also a PhD ;).
I have been thinking about you a lot the past few days, actually, with much gratitude, warmth, and tenderness as I continue to make connections between earnest, full-being, what-you-believe-yourself-to-be-at-your-very-core belief on the one hand and what the, um, opposite of that might be. I initially wrote you a long note about my insights here, but then thought the better of it, and harvested it into a Word document. If you're interested in hearing about it, e-mail me, I guess. (The insights center on there being a connection between holding in "correct" beliefs and a phenomenon beginning with the letter "e" that you and I share a phobia about.)
Thank you for all you do. You are not alone and your work is making a difference for others. Much, much care to you.
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on Brian Mclaren’s new book! I saw he is doing a conference here in Portland with a bunch of speakers called Can Christianity Be Saved and I’m pretty sure they don’t have anyone speaking who would say “no”😂😬😫
Thank you, Christine! So glad to be part of your group!
This is my current struggle in a faith community. My beliefs have changed and I would say are a bit of a slippery soupy mix right now. I am in a church where right beliefs are really important and other Christian traditions are seen with suspicion. I was once like that too. Its difficult as my husband is in a different place. He is less interested in questioning things and has this gift of simple faith. I have grieved over changing beliefs mainly because belonging is so intertwined with 'right' beliefs. I have mostly accepted the leaderships guidance on beliefs and only lately have been honest about the fact I dont actually believe some things but have gone along so that I can belong
I grew up in a church that didn't have that focus on belief - in fact, it emphasised the opposite, the freedom of belief. The idea was, if I understood it correctly, that freedom of belief would let the liturgy do its thing far better. But also, it wasn't one of those churches that wanted a lot of members, it just wanted to be there for the ones there. I keep learning how lucky I was.
That said, I also wonder about religion a lot. It's complicated for me, and perhaps it always will be - and I think I am on the path to learning to be okay with that.