Long time listener, first time caller here! I was in a conservative non-denom church at the time, secretly queer, and just trying to love others well. I was sitting out at a restaurant with a few friends, when I asked what I thought was a benign question to get some fun conversation going and hopefully lead to some interesting thoughts (because it had been rolling around in my head and heart). It was, “what if there isn’t a literal Adam and Eve?”
Oh boy, my [former] long time friend shut me down so quickly and so hard. “The question you’re asking goes against the orthodoxy of the church present and in history and there is no reason to go down this road!”
Phew. Well I hate conflict, but I’m also a rebel. So I agreed at the time, changed the topic, dropped my belief in literal creation, and subsequently left the church and started down a wildly different path. I’m much happier these days.
well hey there long time listener! No such thing as a "benign" question that remotely questions the authority of church doctrine, right?? I love that you asked the question though and wish we could have been friends way back when. And rebelling was so much the right choice. :)
My faith deconstruction happened while in college (doesn't everyone's?) I had been raised Catholic all the way, grammer school, High School, Mass every week, until.... Vatican III, 1963. The wise men in Rome decided to do away with a lot of religious detritus that had been accumulating since the Middle Ages. Looking back, it was a fabulously brave thing to do, bringing the Church into the 20th century. But at the time, it turned my world upside down. If it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, touch the communion host with your teeth, or miss Sunday Mass once in a while, what did that say about the rest of Christianity's rules and regs? It was all downhill from there.
Wow that's so fascinating that the liberalizing (if that's the right word) of Catholic doctrine catalyzed your faith deconstruction! I wonder if that happened to other people too (the "how can we trust the rules/ the church then??"). Also, the things that were mortal sins sort of amaze me - what a tense way to live!
Two things happened more or less in parallel to catalyze my deconstruction or whatever you want to call it. First, I became a parent and was startled by how little my experience fit the narratives about motherhood that the white American evangelical church had given me. And second, I started noticing some potential problems in my church at the time, tried to bring them up with leadership, and long story short, their response was not conducive to dialogue or understanding.
That's really interesting about the motherhood thing (and it looks like your newsletter is about similar themes - I'll go check it out after this comment!). I had fully shifted in my faith before having kids but I've felt really aware of not fitting into church or cultural expectations for motherhood. I wrote a bit about it in this post (along with others): https://christinegreenwald.substack.com/p/just-say-no-to-the-myth-of-the-ideal
Thanks for your spiritual growth bio, Christine. My start on deconstruction was much like yours. It started with diligently reading my Bible and discovering horrors and discrepancies within the pages. Did Judas fall headlong, or did he hang himself? Is God love, or did “he” really tell the Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites et al? And so on. Then there was the impossibility of living a sinless life and being constantly condemned from the pulpit for our sins while also being told Jesus died for our sins and we were forgiven. Which was it?! I sure didn’t feel forgiven (felt paralyzing guilt and shame). Then there was a god who is perfect love who was also angry, jealous, vengeful, spiteful, petty, and “just” when he condemned souls to eternal torment in hell. Say what??!! What’s perfectly loving about any of that? And finally there was the culture of patriarchy, apartheid (between men and women), bigotry (toward LGBTQ and other faiths), and right-wing extremist politics preached from the pulpit and given as “voting guide” handouts and petitions. It took me a long time and a lot of inner struggles and personal growth to see through it all and then to start moving on. The good news is I did move on, and now as a universalist (small “u”) I see the sincere spirituality of many Christians and am OK with the faith generally (and even feel drawn to the liberal mystical versions!) if we don’t get too much into discussing conservative doctrines or politics, LOL! These days I practice my own eclectic mix of mysticism, meditation, and belief in divinity and am spiritually much more fulfilled. Thanks for asking us and sorry for writing another whole article! 😄
YES to noticing all the discrepancies. That was not part of the deal they were trying to sell us of "just have faith and believe" and blindly follow!
Haha I always love to hear from you. Thank you for sharing your story and all these little but actually big things culminating in massive faith deconstruction!
I’m curious about NARM. From appearances, it seems to be a solid theory and practice. I’d love to see some peer reviews that assess its effectiveness and validity. I like to know more broadly about it as I do any program that initially grows out of one person's research.. (I did this with Center for Mind-Body Medicine for which I’m now trained as a group facilitator. It also grew from the vision and understanding of one man as well.)
I agree some peer reviews would be great to see! Hopefully one day. It does combine a lot of existing theories (attachment, psychodynamic, somatic) into a new sort of model. That's cool you're a facilitator for Mind-Body Medicine! I don't actually know much about it but still... you're doing neat stuff. As your email to me also demonstrated!
This is so fascinating to me! I'm familiar with Vineyard but not the ins and outs except some affiliation with Assemblies of God or general charismatic... anyway, I'm so struck by how much certainty we had about the feelings of experiencing God and how this once served as proof to probably a lot of us. I have a close friend in the Pentecostal church who swears she's experienced healings in the prayer services and stuff, and I don't believe at all what she does (though it can feel tempting to have such certainty...). You were a missionary and I'm sure "all-in" for a long time!
Our emotions, especially when experienced in a group and with the right ambience ("worship music" can have the same effect as any concert, right?!?) have suuuuuch a powerful effect on us and on what we believe!
Long time listener, first time caller here! I was in a conservative non-denom church at the time, secretly queer, and just trying to love others well. I was sitting out at a restaurant with a few friends, when I asked what I thought was a benign question to get some fun conversation going and hopefully lead to some interesting thoughts (because it had been rolling around in my head and heart). It was, “what if there isn’t a literal Adam and Eve?”
Oh boy, my [former] long time friend shut me down so quickly and so hard. “The question you’re asking goes against the orthodoxy of the church present and in history and there is no reason to go down this road!”
Phew. Well I hate conflict, but I’m also a rebel. So I agreed at the time, changed the topic, dropped my belief in literal creation, and subsequently left the church and started down a wildly different path. I’m much happier these days.
well hey there long time listener! No such thing as a "benign" question that remotely questions the authority of church doctrine, right?? I love that you asked the question though and wish we could have been friends way back when. And rebelling was so much the right choice. :)
My faith deconstruction happened while in college (doesn't everyone's?) I had been raised Catholic all the way, grammer school, High School, Mass every week, until.... Vatican III, 1963. The wise men in Rome decided to do away with a lot of religious detritus that had been accumulating since the Middle Ages. Looking back, it was a fabulously brave thing to do, bringing the Church into the 20th century. But at the time, it turned my world upside down. If it was no longer a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday, touch the communion host with your teeth, or miss Sunday Mass once in a while, what did that say about the rest of Christianity's rules and regs? It was all downhill from there.
Wow that's so fascinating that the liberalizing (if that's the right word) of Catholic doctrine catalyzed your faith deconstruction! I wonder if that happened to other people too (the "how can we trust the rules/ the church then??"). Also, the things that were mortal sins sort of amaze me - what a tense way to live!
I did eventually return to faith, but this time as a protestant, wanting to be my own priest. And this time I had my husband's company.
“To be my own priest” yesss!
Congrats on the guest post, Christine!! 💃🏻
Thank you! Stepped out of my comfort zone to ask her if I could! :)
Two things happened more or less in parallel to catalyze my deconstruction or whatever you want to call it. First, I became a parent and was startled by how little my experience fit the narratives about motherhood that the white American evangelical church had given me. And second, I started noticing some potential problems in my church at the time, tried to bring them up with leadership, and long story short, their response was not conducive to dialogue or understanding.
That's really interesting about the motherhood thing (and it looks like your newsletter is about similar themes - I'll go check it out after this comment!). I had fully shifted in my faith before having kids but I've felt really aware of not fitting into church or cultural expectations for motherhood. I wrote a bit about it in this post (along with others): https://christinegreenwald.substack.com/p/just-say-no-to-the-myth-of-the-ideal
Thank you for sharing!
Thanks for sharing that post! Thought-provoking stuff.
Thanks for your spiritual growth bio, Christine. My start on deconstruction was much like yours. It started with diligently reading my Bible and discovering horrors and discrepancies within the pages. Did Judas fall headlong, or did he hang himself? Is God love, or did “he” really tell the Israelites to commit genocide against the Canaanites et al? And so on. Then there was the impossibility of living a sinless life and being constantly condemned from the pulpit for our sins while also being told Jesus died for our sins and we were forgiven. Which was it?! I sure didn’t feel forgiven (felt paralyzing guilt and shame). Then there was a god who is perfect love who was also angry, jealous, vengeful, spiteful, petty, and “just” when he condemned souls to eternal torment in hell. Say what??!! What’s perfectly loving about any of that? And finally there was the culture of patriarchy, apartheid (between men and women), bigotry (toward LGBTQ and other faiths), and right-wing extremist politics preached from the pulpit and given as “voting guide” handouts and petitions. It took me a long time and a lot of inner struggles and personal growth to see through it all and then to start moving on. The good news is I did move on, and now as a universalist (small “u”) I see the sincere spirituality of many Christians and am OK with the faith generally (and even feel drawn to the liberal mystical versions!) if we don’t get too much into discussing conservative doctrines or politics, LOL! These days I practice my own eclectic mix of mysticism, meditation, and belief in divinity and am spiritually much more fulfilled. Thanks for asking us and sorry for writing another whole article! 😄
YES to noticing all the discrepancies. That was not part of the deal they were trying to sell us of "just have faith and believe" and blindly follow!
Haha I always love to hear from you. Thank you for sharing your story and all these little but actually big things culminating in massive faith deconstruction!
😊
I’m curious about NARM. From appearances, it seems to be a solid theory and practice. I’d love to see some peer reviews that assess its effectiveness and validity. I like to know more broadly about it as I do any program that initially grows out of one person's research.. (I did this with Center for Mind-Body Medicine for which I’m now trained as a group facilitator. It also grew from the vision and understanding of one man as well.)
Thanks.
I agree some peer reviews would be great to see! Hopefully one day. It does combine a lot of existing theories (attachment, psychodynamic, somatic) into a new sort of model. That's cool you're a facilitator for Mind-Body Medicine! I don't actually know much about it but still... you're doing neat stuff. As your email to me also demonstrated!
This is so fascinating to me! I'm familiar with Vineyard but not the ins and outs except some affiliation with Assemblies of God or general charismatic... anyway, I'm so struck by how much certainty we had about the feelings of experiencing God and how this once served as proof to probably a lot of us. I have a close friend in the Pentecostal church who swears she's experienced healings in the prayer services and stuff, and I don't believe at all what she does (though it can feel tempting to have such certainty...). You were a missionary and I'm sure "all-in" for a long time!
Thanks for sharing part of your story!
Our emotions, especially when experienced in a group and with the right ambience ("worship music" can have the same effect as any concert, right?!?) have suuuuuch a powerful effect on us and on what we believe!