Hello! First time commenting, but I’ve been lurking for a little while. So much of this resonated, but two things in particular stood out:
1) Feeling like my testimony wasn’t “good enough” because I didn’t have a huge “come to Jesus” moment that utterly up-ended my life. I was also around 5 years old when I prayed the Jesus prayer, and I was determined to be a good church kid, so my list of sins I confessed before every Sunday (all the way through high school) included things like being mean to my sister, not listening to my parents, being selfish, etc. No rebellion or prodigal-son-worthy behavior, like the big fancy testimonies had. I remember around 11th/12th grade, I was hanging onto my faith by a thread, too scared to let go. “But what if I have to let go and fall far far down so I can slingshot back into all-in-for-Jesus with a gorgeous testimony like everyone else has? But then what if I let go and fall but I never slingshot back?” The fear of hell and losing everything kept me clinging to my tiny faith because I wasn’t yet in a place where I was questioning the actual doctrine; I was just tired of trying to be perfect (but also too terrified to let down the façade). Fast forward 10 years, and I’m in the midst of deconstruction, where anything is up for debate/open for questioning and I’m learning to let go instead of cling. Sometimes it feels like I’m falling, but not in the ominous falling into the deep dark that I thought letting go meant back in high school. And absolutely still working through that shame/guilt/fear (and still working on letting down that façade of perfection)!
2) Christianity having the solution to the problem it creates. Something I’ve been puzzling over for the last few month is “how can the gospel be good news for everyone if you have to adhere to a certain theology in order for the gospel to rescue you?” For example: If you don’t believe in hell, you have no fear of hell and no reason to turn from your sin to avoid a fiery eternity. If you have to believe that Jesus died to save you from your sins, you have to believe that you are sinful (and that that’s not a good thing).
But what if the good news is that life can be different, that there’s a different, more freeing, more loving way of doing things? What if the good news is that the harmful things we believe are wrong? I simply have musings, not answers, and this is just the beginning of this leg of my journey. It’s just that I grew up believing that believing a specific/right way is what saved you (something I’m only recently understanding), and that just doesn’t seem right or good anymore.
Thanks for creating a space to discuss these things, and for giving words and a voice to these sometimes-hard-to-describe experiences!
Hi Elizabeth! Thanks for commenting, it's so good to hear your thoughts! Re: 1: It felt like such a random thing to include in the piece about weird shame about not having a "good enough" testimony, but it felt so real back then and had this weird shame attached in a way that hardly seems to make sense, but others are resonating with this idea and it's good to know we're all not alone! Feels sad to think about your high school self weighing the slingshot back to Jesus and all the stress of trying to be perfect. The pressure we all were put under back then was...a lot.
I really love the questions you're pondering. YES! How can it be good news when you have to squeeze into a theology that oh, by the way, also secretly causes a lot of harm? Hmm...
I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately. To believe the gospel, as evangelical Christianity teaches it, means you have to believe that sin is the problem. That your sin separates you from God and that's the reason Jesus died, because there have to be consequences for sin, and Jesus took the consequence of death in our place. But what if sin isn't the problem? I've been thinking about this a lot and I don't have answers yet either. But I think a lot about creation, and the incarnation, and the simple goodness of being alive in this physical world. I think a lot about our Creator being with us in our daily lives and in our pain, and the idea that Jesus entered into it and experienced our suffering sounds more like good news to me than the idea that he only died to atone for our sin.
Love that. Feels very Richard Rohr - you asked about which book in some other comment - don't know if you regularly read his stuff but if you don't, you would definitely love it! A huge part of my own deconstruction / spirituality journey was trying to figure out new kinds of theology that meant something, not just tossing out what I didn't like, and it sounds like you're really trying to do that too!
My thoughts exactly, Elisabeth! Thank you for expressing them so well!
I had two crises of faith as a teen: when I read “Da Vinci Code” and when I started biology in high school with an amazing professor who taught us all about evolution. My mum’s answer to both was giving me “More than a Carpenter” to read and some of those horrid Kent Hovind creationist DVDs to watch.
Still, I held on mostly because of what you expressed: “what if I am wrong? What if stopping to believe this specific thing will land me in hell?”
Plus a lot of “all or nothing” thinking, very neurodivergent of me.
I have since come to believe that the evangelical “gospel” is not only not good news but also most definitely unbiblical. I’m still trying to figure out how would the world look like of we actually listened to Jesus and focused on meaningful transformation to more loving and kind people instead of trying to scare people into Christianity.
And sometimes, as you said Christine, the “principalities and powers” of the system feel far too strong to break, but for some mysterious reason I am still hopeful.
I vaguely remember "More Than a Carpenter" and most definitely was indoctrinated by all the Kent Hovind DVDs 😅
The timing of your comment is funny because I'm currently at my pastor husband's denominational national conference (the Disciples of Christ) and the emphases they have is nothing like the evangelicalism I was raised in. Lots of justice, compassion, hospitality to the stranger, LGBTQ+ advocacy, etc. It's quite refreshing to see and hear.
So much yes to what you added! Stepping into a new understanding of what the gospel and faith can mean has been really freeing, and I’m both angry that evangelicalism has such a strong hold and also so happy and excited when I hear of churches and people doing things differently (and about the prospect of what could be!).
I had (and still have) a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, too! And I was very staunchly anti-evolution in grade school but started changing my mind in college as a biology major. My teenage self would be so disappointed in me 😂 (And I’m good with that!)
All of this--but the gaslighting comment stood out to me. Because the belief system is never what's wrong - it's always you. You can't trust yourself, because all of your thoughts, desires, and impulses are evil and sinful. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9). So what you're supposed to do is put your faith in this God who always knows better than you, and who will keep pointing out your sins to you as you go on in life, because you're so depraved that you can't even see your own sins. All of the pieces of the belief system work together to make you constantly doubt yourself and never figure out what you actually want or need. You just have to trust that this higher being knows what you need, and trust that the happenings in your life are his way of providing what you need, even when you can't see how. To me, all of this is more than just gaslighting... it's narcissistic abuse.
YESSS to all of this. So well said! I think you're right -- it is narcissistic abuse. I've actually pondered the question of why / how evangelicalism seems to contain narcissistic adults (either narc-lite, like very emotionally immature, or full out personality disorder megachurch pastors enthralled with their own status and power). Because the god they worship is pretty narcissistic, too. Hope to write a couple pieces on this in the future. Thank you for reading and sharing your thoughts!!
I love that you're sharing your story. I also felt shame over the lack of conversion story; I felt so basic in a religion that elevated radical living and dramatic testimony. Such an interesting cycle of thoughts that spiral...feeling guilty for not having a traumatic life altering experience lead me to jesus.
Yes, you too felt this way?!! As if we could ever control for a traumatic life experience -- feel so bad for our younger selves. I said this in another comment, but it felt like an odd / random detail to include in what I wrote but it turns out I'm definitely not alone in this feeling! I think it's just wild how many parallels there are in how we all psychologically experienced different elements of this religion.
I find so much intimate joy hearing stories from people who had similar experiences, especially since there was always the threat that if you leave Christianity, it's dark and lonely. Turns out you're never really alone and there are so many people who share your same story!
I started seeing my current therapist just a couple of years after my de-conversion experience. She really gets it, and helped me see how my scared young self didn't have any adults in my life who were really tuned in to me. I didn't have the ability to really express my guilt and fears then. Definitely also recognize now the shame I felt as a pre-teen, teen, and young adult.
It's such a tragedy that the religion sets itself up such that adults, even if they would / could be truly tuned in to others, cannot be tuned in to another person's deep fears and questions because it's too much of a threat to one's own religious system 💔
I know I felt this way also. Those powerful testimonies around the fire at summer Bible camp or on stage at other youth events... my life didn't compare to any of that drama. And then, I also had the recurring worry that my accepting Jesus didn't "take" because I didn't feel like it did. And so maybe I wasn't really saved because I did it wrong. So I would pray the prayer over and over again, year after year. It was made more pressing by all the "End Times" talk/movies/books in the 80's during my youth.
Same! I rededicated my life to Jesus at Bible camp practically every summer. I remember asking my mom, “How do you know if you’re saved?” because I was worried I wasn’t. I also remember thinking about: since I didn’t have a before-and-after-Jesus comparison since I was so young when I became a Christian, how do I know if the way I currently am (my actions, thoughts, etc) is actually me + Jesus and not simply me without Jesus but I just *think* I have Jesus? It’s nice to now know that other people were worried about these things, too.
Oh my gosh I think I was worried about that same exact thing, too! The wondering whether the me I experienced myself as was really me with Jesus... or just me and I was missing something / fooling myself. Yikes!
Christine, for me, the guilt and shame is all about a system that promotes a severe form of conditional love. It makes one feel as though we have broken the conditions for fellowship with the group and being loved by god just by being a normal human being with doubts, thoughts, drives, questions, and/or actions that fall into the “sin” category. That is the fatal flaw in Christianity in my view--original sin--you are guilty from the moment you’re born, and even though belief in Jesus supposedly absolves you, you still feel like a horrible sinner *every time* you think or do *anything* outside the strictures of the faith. It is a formula for inner misery! Deconstructing the faith and finding *unconditional love* from a therapist, friends, loved ones, and/or a different view of the divine seems to be the only antidote that produces healing, for me at least.
I agree that original sin is the fatal flaw that cannot NOT induce shame. And creates a tenuous connection with others just based on conditional love (that’s called unconditional but actually is not). Ooh I’d love to write/think more about healing through finding unconditional love (or the closest we humans can approximate to it) through other people/means.
Been there, done that, and became a therapist myself. "A solution to the problem they manufactured" - nailed it. Not sure if I would have slogged through all those years of grad school and postgraduate training without being powerfully motivated to be a listening ear, since that is what I missed most in evangelical culture. No listening, just "fixes." Thank you for this piece.
The motivation to be a listening ear -- yes! Evangelicals just can't listen without attempting to fix (haha ok a lot of people struggle with this) but you can't express a doubt or question without it needing to be immediately solved in a neat package. Yay, fellow therapist! Where do you practice?
I'm in private practice in New York City. Came here because I wanted to train in psychoanalysis, which I did and graduated with a Certificate in Adult Psychoanalysis in 2021. How about yourself? Where do you live/practice?
Oh that's great! My grad program focused heavily on psychoanalytic theories, though I've meandered in different directions as well since then (grad 2016 so not that long ago). I'm in a little rural town of 13k in Ohio and have my own private practice here! Moved here about 5 years ago.
I was brought up Catholic and the goal set before little girls was to become nun or a saint. Preferably both. Our book of saints was full of young virgins being hit upon by princes who wanted... we weren't quite sure. But these good virgins, being Christians, would not give it up for a non- believer, even if he was a prince. So, the princes, being MEN, were not happy with this and killed the virgins, who immediately went to heaven and became saints, so I guess it was worth it.
Some princes, the bad-tempered kind, cut off the virgin's breasts before they killed her and handed them to her on a plate. (??) Another prince put his virgin, Catherine, on a spiked wheel and killed her through torture. We figured those princes wouldn't have made good husbands anyway.
The moral being: you can become a Saint only if you're still a virgin. And also, don't fool around with Protestant boys.
Oh yikes. I grew up evangelical, but became Episcopalian about 7 years ago - I’ve found a lot of stability in the ritual and liturgy, but the Saint stories are always so alarming to me! And especially the women - it’s all about virginity & dowries! I mean I guess many of them care for the poor...but yikes! It reminds me a little of my high school experience in the evangelical 90s where it was all about martyrs and I was pretty convinced I was going to be killed by an active shooter in my school for not denouncing my faith. 😬😣
If I lived in a place with an Episcopalian church I'd love to be visiting regularly. (my spouse is Disciples of Christ pastor, so mainline but definitely not as smells-and-bells-y).
I grew up near Columbine and definitely remember how our evangelical circles focused on the story of Cassie the martyr. I mean it's sad but looking back on everything now, and about school shootings in general (and how awful they are), it feels so... icky to have focused on that so hard. :(
Oh wow. Such different experiences being raised Catholic (and in a different decade), but still with a lot of parallel outcomes, I think! Those books sound...YIKES 😳 I guess that's a way to try and instill values?!?!
Yes yes yes. I relate to all of this. I do truly think it was my understanding of Gods mercy & love (given to me by evangelicalism) that eventually lead me to where I am today. I mean, not John pipers version of mercy & love, lol, but still. I grew up with a lot of forgiveness and grace talk too - allllll the worship songs about amazing love and amazing grace sunk deep. But there was that pesky sin problem & gods holiness problem. When I read Richard Rohr on gods perfection being holy mercy - I was done. I could finally close the door on my evangelical life. I was given language to match my theological dissonance. I’m mostly able to look with compassion on the people in my life who still hold these beliefs, but those powers & principalities piss me off on a regular basis (mainly reformed bros!). Thank god for you therapists.
I love so much that you were able to take the deep meanings of mercy and love and forgiveness and grace and shed the evangelical crustiness!! Richard Rohr has been so transforming for my ability to basically re-interpret the theology I had been given growing up. He gave new meanings to words that had taken on negative connotations and provided such a healing perspective.
I find courage on my deconstruction journey from your writing. Thank you for sharing your courage and helping others find voices of these shared experiences.
Christine, following up on the theme of conditional love in Christianity versus genuine unconditional love, the book A General Theory of Love by Drs. Lewis, Amini, and Lannon, recommended by our mutual friend, was incredibly meaningful and life-changing for me. The gist is if one struggles with shame and insecure attachment, the antidote is unconditional love from a therapist. I have found expanding beyond a therapist to unconditionally loving friendships and support groups multiplies the positive effects that lead to healing and growth. Knowing this information has transformed my emotional life and relationships as well as my spirituality.
Ooh I should find this book! Yes, I know we therapists want all our clients to find that space of unconditional acceptance / love beyond the relationship we have with them. That's real success! Thanks for mentioning the book rec!
Right! And those women who help the poor are mostly widows, so they're non-sexual, sort of like virgins. The only one I remember that wasn't was St. Margaret who made her husband mad by giving too much to the beggars.
Hello! First time commenting, but I’ve been lurking for a little while. So much of this resonated, but two things in particular stood out:
1) Feeling like my testimony wasn’t “good enough” because I didn’t have a huge “come to Jesus” moment that utterly up-ended my life. I was also around 5 years old when I prayed the Jesus prayer, and I was determined to be a good church kid, so my list of sins I confessed before every Sunday (all the way through high school) included things like being mean to my sister, not listening to my parents, being selfish, etc. No rebellion or prodigal-son-worthy behavior, like the big fancy testimonies had. I remember around 11th/12th grade, I was hanging onto my faith by a thread, too scared to let go. “But what if I have to let go and fall far far down so I can slingshot back into all-in-for-Jesus with a gorgeous testimony like everyone else has? But then what if I let go and fall but I never slingshot back?” The fear of hell and losing everything kept me clinging to my tiny faith because I wasn’t yet in a place where I was questioning the actual doctrine; I was just tired of trying to be perfect (but also too terrified to let down the façade). Fast forward 10 years, and I’m in the midst of deconstruction, where anything is up for debate/open for questioning and I’m learning to let go instead of cling. Sometimes it feels like I’m falling, but not in the ominous falling into the deep dark that I thought letting go meant back in high school. And absolutely still working through that shame/guilt/fear (and still working on letting down that façade of perfection)!
2) Christianity having the solution to the problem it creates. Something I’ve been puzzling over for the last few month is “how can the gospel be good news for everyone if you have to adhere to a certain theology in order for the gospel to rescue you?” For example: If you don’t believe in hell, you have no fear of hell and no reason to turn from your sin to avoid a fiery eternity. If you have to believe that Jesus died to save you from your sins, you have to believe that you are sinful (and that that’s not a good thing).
But what if the good news is that life can be different, that there’s a different, more freeing, more loving way of doing things? What if the good news is that the harmful things we believe are wrong? I simply have musings, not answers, and this is just the beginning of this leg of my journey. It’s just that I grew up believing that believing a specific/right way is what saved you (something I’m only recently understanding), and that just doesn’t seem right or good anymore.
Thanks for creating a space to discuss these things, and for giving words and a voice to these sometimes-hard-to-describe experiences!
Hi Elizabeth! Thanks for commenting, it's so good to hear your thoughts! Re: 1: It felt like such a random thing to include in the piece about weird shame about not having a "good enough" testimony, but it felt so real back then and had this weird shame attached in a way that hardly seems to make sense, but others are resonating with this idea and it's good to know we're all not alone! Feels sad to think about your high school self weighing the slingshot back to Jesus and all the stress of trying to be perfect. The pressure we all were put under back then was...a lot.
I really love the questions you're pondering. YES! How can it be good news when you have to squeeze into a theology that oh, by the way, also secretly causes a lot of harm? Hmm...
I've been thinking about the exact same thing lately. To believe the gospel, as evangelical Christianity teaches it, means you have to believe that sin is the problem. That your sin separates you from God and that's the reason Jesus died, because there have to be consequences for sin, and Jesus took the consequence of death in our place. But what if sin isn't the problem? I've been thinking about this a lot and I don't have answers yet either. But I think a lot about creation, and the incarnation, and the simple goodness of being alive in this physical world. I think a lot about our Creator being with us in our daily lives and in our pain, and the idea that Jesus entered into it and experienced our suffering sounds more like good news to me than the idea that he only died to atone for our sin.
Love that. Feels very Richard Rohr - you asked about which book in some other comment - don't know if you regularly read his stuff but if you don't, you would definitely love it! A huge part of my own deconstruction / spirituality journey was trying to figure out new kinds of theology that meant something, not just tossing out what I didn't like, and it sounds like you're really trying to do that too!
I haven't read anything by him, so I will have to look into it. Yes, I'm definitely in that process!
My thoughts exactly, Elisabeth! Thank you for expressing them so well!
I had two crises of faith as a teen: when I read “Da Vinci Code” and when I started biology in high school with an amazing professor who taught us all about evolution. My mum’s answer to both was giving me “More than a Carpenter” to read and some of those horrid Kent Hovind creationist DVDs to watch.
Still, I held on mostly because of what you expressed: “what if I am wrong? What if stopping to believe this specific thing will land me in hell?”
Plus a lot of “all or nothing” thinking, very neurodivergent of me.
I have since come to believe that the evangelical “gospel” is not only not good news but also most definitely unbiblical. I’m still trying to figure out how would the world look like of we actually listened to Jesus and focused on meaningful transformation to more loving and kind people instead of trying to scare people into Christianity.
And sometimes, as you said Christine, the “principalities and powers” of the system feel far too strong to break, but for some mysterious reason I am still hopeful.
I vaguely remember "More Than a Carpenter" and most definitely was indoctrinated by all the Kent Hovind DVDs 😅
The timing of your comment is funny because I'm currently at my pastor husband's denominational national conference (the Disciples of Christ) and the emphases they have is nothing like the evangelicalism I was raised in. Lots of justice, compassion, hospitality to the stranger, LGBTQ+ advocacy, etc. It's quite refreshing to see and hear.
So much yes to what you added! Stepping into a new understanding of what the gospel and faith can mean has been really freeing, and I’m both angry that evangelicalism has such a strong hold and also so happy and excited when I hear of churches and people doing things differently (and about the prospect of what could be!).
I had (and still have) a lot of all-or-nothing thinking, too! And I was very staunchly anti-evolution in grade school but started changing my mind in college as a biology major. My teenage self would be so disappointed in me 😂 (And I’m good with that!)
All of this--but the gaslighting comment stood out to me. Because the belief system is never what's wrong - it's always you. You can't trust yourself, because all of your thoughts, desires, and impulses are evil and sinful. “The heart is deceitful above all things” (Jeremiah 17:9). So what you're supposed to do is put your faith in this God who always knows better than you, and who will keep pointing out your sins to you as you go on in life, because you're so depraved that you can't even see your own sins. All of the pieces of the belief system work together to make you constantly doubt yourself and never figure out what you actually want or need. You just have to trust that this higher being knows what you need, and trust that the happenings in your life are his way of providing what you need, even when you can't see how. To me, all of this is more than just gaslighting... it's narcissistic abuse.
YESSS to all of this. So well said! I think you're right -- it is narcissistic abuse. I've actually pondered the question of why / how evangelicalism seems to contain narcissistic adults (either narc-lite, like very emotionally immature, or full out personality disorder megachurch pastors enthralled with their own status and power). Because the god they worship is pretty narcissistic, too. Hope to write a couple pieces on this in the future. Thank you for reading and sharing your thoughts!!
I love that you're sharing your story. I also felt shame over the lack of conversion story; I felt so basic in a religion that elevated radical living and dramatic testimony. Such an interesting cycle of thoughts that spiral...feeling guilty for not having a traumatic life altering experience lead me to jesus.
Yes, you too felt this way?!! As if we could ever control for a traumatic life experience -- feel so bad for our younger selves. I said this in another comment, but it felt like an odd / random detail to include in what I wrote but it turns out I'm definitely not alone in this feeling! I think it's just wild how many parallels there are in how we all psychologically experienced different elements of this religion.
I find so much intimate joy hearing stories from people who had similar experiences, especially since there was always the threat that if you leave Christianity, it's dark and lonely. Turns out you're never really alone and there are so many people who share your same story!
I started seeing my current therapist just a couple of years after my de-conversion experience. She really gets it, and helped me see how my scared young self didn't have any adults in my life who were really tuned in to me. I didn't have the ability to really express my guilt and fears then. Definitely also recognize now the shame I felt as a pre-teen, teen, and young adult.
It's such a tragedy that the religion sets itself up such that adults, even if they would / could be truly tuned in to others, cannot be tuned in to another person's deep fears and questions because it's too much of a threat to one's own religious system 💔
I know I felt this way also. Those powerful testimonies around the fire at summer Bible camp or on stage at other youth events... my life didn't compare to any of that drama. And then, I also had the recurring worry that my accepting Jesus didn't "take" because I didn't feel like it did. And so maybe I wasn't really saved because I did it wrong. So I would pray the prayer over and over again, year after year. It was made more pressing by all the "End Times" talk/movies/books in the 80's during my youth.
Same! I rededicated my life to Jesus at Bible camp practically every summer. I remember asking my mom, “How do you know if you’re saved?” because I was worried I wasn’t. I also remember thinking about: since I didn’t have a before-and-after-Jesus comparison since I was so young when I became a Christian, how do I know if the way I currently am (my actions, thoughts, etc) is actually me + Jesus and not simply me without Jesus but I just *think* I have Jesus? It’s nice to now know that other people were worried about these things, too.
Oh my gosh I think I was worried about that same exact thing, too! The wondering whether the me I experienced myself as was really me with Jesus... or just me and I was missing something / fooling myself. Yikes!
Christine, for me, the guilt and shame is all about a system that promotes a severe form of conditional love. It makes one feel as though we have broken the conditions for fellowship with the group and being loved by god just by being a normal human being with doubts, thoughts, drives, questions, and/or actions that fall into the “sin” category. That is the fatal flaw in Christianity in my view--original sin--you are guilty from the moment you’re born, and even though belief in Jesus supposedly absolves you, you still feel like a horrible sinner *every time* you think or do *anything* outside the strictures of the faith. It is a formula for inner misery! Deconstructing the faith and finding *unconditional love* from a therapist, friends, loved ones, and/or a different view of the divine seems to be the only antidote that produces healing, for me at least.
I agree that original sin is the fatal flaw that cannot NOT induce shame. And creates a tenuous connection with others just based on conditional love (that’s called unconditional but actually is not). Ooh I’d love to write/think more about healing through finding unconditional love (or the closest we humans can approximate to it) through other people/means.
Been there, done that, and became a therapist myself. "A solution to the problem they manufactured" - nailed it. Not sure if I would have slogged through all those years of grad school and postgraduate training without being powerfully motivated to be a listening ear, since that is what I missed most in evangelical culture. No listening, just "fixes." Thank you for this piece.
The motivation to be a listening ear -- yes! Evangelicals just can't listen without attempting to fix (haha ok a lot of people struggle with this) but you can't express a doubt or question without it needing to be immediately solved in a neat package. Yay, fellow therapist! Where do you practice?
I'm in private practice in New York City. Came here because I wanted to train in psychoanalysis, which I did and graduated with a Certificate in Adult Psychoanalysis in 2021. How about yourself? Where do you live/practice?
Oh that's great! My grad program focused heavily on psychoanalytic theories, though I've meandered in different directions as well since then (grad 2016 so not that long ago). I'm in a little rural town of 13k in Ohio and have my own private practice here! Moved here about 5 years ago.
I was brought up Catholic and the goal set before little girls was to become nun or a saint. Preferably both. Our book of saints was full of young virgins being hit upon by princes who wanted... we weren't quite sure. But these good virgins, being Christians, would not give it up for a non- believer, even if he was a prince. So, the princes, being MEN, were not happy with this and killed the virgins, who immediately went to heaven and became saints, so I guess it was worth it.
Some princes, the bad-tempered kind, cut off the virgin's breasts before they killed her and handed them to her on a plate. (??) Another prince put his virgin, Catherine, on a spiked wheel and killed her through torture. We figured those princes wouldn't have made good husbands anyway.
The moral being: you can become a Saint only if you're still a virgin. And also, don't fool around with Protestant boys.
Oh yikes. I grew up evangelical, but became Episcopalian about 7 years ago - I’ve found a lot of stability in the ritual and liturgy, but the Saint stories are always so alarming to me! And especially the women - it’s all about virginity & dowries! I mean I guess many of them care for the poor...but yikes! It reminds me a little of my high school experience in the evangelical 90s where it was all about martyrs and I was pretty convinced I was going to be killed by an active shooter in my school for not denouncing my faith. 😬😣
If I lived in a place with an Episcopalian church I'd love to be visiting regularly. (my spouse is Disciples of Christ pastor, so mainline but definitely not as smells-and-bells-y).
I grew up near Columbine and definitely remember how our evangelical circles focused on the story of Cassie the martyr. I mean it's sad but looking back on everything now, and about school shootings in general (and how awful they are), it feels so... icky to have focused on that so hard. :(
I scoffed at it as a good evangelical kid, but now I absolutely love the smells & bells! ...and crystals and tarot and candles 😂😂
Oh wow. Such different experiences being raised Catholic (and in a different decade), but still with a lot of parallel outcomes, I think! Those books sound...YIKES 😳 I guess that's a way to try and instill values?!?!
Yes yes yes. I relate to all of this. I do truly think it was my understanding of Gods mercy & love (given to me by evangelicalism) that eventually lead me to where I am today. I mean, not John pipers version of mercy & love, lol, but still. I grew up with a lot of forgiveness and grace talk too - allllll the worship songs about amazing love and amazing grace sunk deep. But there was that pesky sin problem & gods holiness problem. When I read Richard Rohr on gods perfection being holy mercy - I was done. I could finally close the door on my evangelical life. I was given language to match my theological dissonance. I’m mostly able to look with compassion on the people in my life who still hold these beliefs, but those powers & principalities piss me off on a regular basis (mainly reformed bros!). Thank god for you therapists.
I love so much that you were able to take the deep meanings of mercy and love and forgiveness and grace and shed the evangelical crustiness!! Richard Rohr has been so transforming for my ability to basically re-interpret the theology I had been given growing up. He gave new meanings to words that had taken on negative connotations and provided such a healing perspective.
Lol reformed bros are the worst 🤪
Thanks for sharing!!
Can I ask what book or work of Richard Rohr you read that in?
I’m sorry, I can’t remember - it may have been the divine dance. I also found this sermon/post in a quick google that has at least the same idea https://cac.org/daily-meditations/love-shows-mercy-2016-07-21/
I find courage on my deconstruction journey from your writing. Thank you for sharing your courage and helping others find voices of these shared experiences.
It’s an honor to share and create space for others to do the same! Thank you for being here.
Christine, following up on the theme of conditional love in Christianity versus genuine unconditional love, the book A General Theory of Love by Drs. Lewis, Amini, and Lannon, recommended by our mutual friend, was incredibly meaningful and life-changing for me. The gist is if one struggles with shame and insecure attachment, the antidote is unconditional love from a therapist. I have found expanding beyond a therapist to unconditionally loving friendships and support groups multiplies the positive effects that lead to healing and growth. Knowing this information has transformed my emotional life and relationships as well as my spirituality.
Ooh I should find this book! Yes, I know we therapists want all our clients to find that space of unconditional acceptance / love beyond the relationship we have with them. That's real success! Thanks for mentioning the book rec!
Right! And those women who help the poor are mostly widows, so they're non-sexual, sort of like virgins. The only one I remember that wasn't was St. Margaret who made her husband mad by giving too much to the beggars.
Soooooo good. ❤️
I'd love to hear more about navigating/healing from family dynamics where some are still deeply stuck in the beliefs of the church and some are not.