Thanks for opening up a space to think and discuss the intersection of neurodivergence and religious trauma. I think the most revelatory explanation for my experience in high demand religion and the subsequent religious trauma I’m struggling to heal has been the acknowledgment of the ways in which I have fawned to belong within the religious communities I was raised in and those I self-selected to be in. Fawning, or merging my own desires and interest with those in authority, and being a committed believer who became a missionary before studying ministry leadership in my late twenties was all a self-preservation act. I knew how to be and what to say in Christian spaces because it was oh so predictable. And I didn’t stand out as awkward around people I presumed were my peers. Even my special interest in history (narrowed down to church history when needed) wasn’t seen as an obsession because it could be wielded to educate or reassure those in the church of their supremacy and self-importance. At the same time, as a systems thinker, I couldn’t do anything but challenge the moral and intellectual status quo of said communities. While my commitment to truth was greater than my loyalty to egos, I was still afraid of being ostracized. In evolutionary terms, that is a certain death. So I poked and prodded where I could without truly rocking the boat. That is, until my frustration with participating in a harmful system and feeling alone within a religious community where no one seemed to mirror the intensity of my concerns led to my exit/exile. After leaving, I told a person with whom I worked at this mega church and whom I trusted that I no longer wanted to operate within the framework and with the tools I had been taught and trained to operate with and under. She got offended and explicitly told me that I was being prideful for thinking I was better than the institution. And her rejection cut deeper than all the others because I had thought we were cut from the same cloth. In my experience, that neurodivergent trait of living life in extremes and desiring radical stuff butting against the neurotypical drive for mediums and compromises complexifies religious trauma. Because this difference and the shame we pick up for being too much or not enough is something we already experience and normalize in childhood, it’s even harder to notice how toxic it is when we experience it as adults in a religious institution.
I really appreciate your comment, Pascale! I resonate with this so much: "While my commitment to truth was greater than my loyalty to egos, I was still afraid of being ostracized" -- and understanding that psychologically / evolutionarily in terms of certain death! So well said with the neurodivergent drive for extremes and being radical (in whatever way we believe is the right radical way) and the history of feeling shame for too much / not enough-ness. Also, so frustrating / sad about the person at the mega church who just thought you were being prideful for having the nerve to critically, morally examine an institution... sigh. Thank you thank you for sharing your story!
I'm experiencing a long, painful progression from a fawn profile, led by fear, trust in those "greater" than me, and a strong desire to somehow fit in, to a skeptical, logic-driven life, filled with the need to make it good and logical. I have always tried desperately to make it all make sense plus help people see how to live out their beliefs. I assumed that where it didn't make sense I just didn't get it yet. I am coming to believe that maybe the fault isn't mine, but the belief itself. Such a big shift!
"I assumed that where it didn't make sense I just didn't get it yet. I am coming to believe that maybe the fault isn't mine, but the belief itself." Yaahhhsssss!!! Such a big shift, and so much more freedom in this!
Thank you for sharing your story! I would say that, in my growing-up, I was the All-In Believer with a Fawn Response papering over a Systems-Thinking Skeptic, if that makes sense.
Hi, although I can relate with so much of this that I'm beginnig to wonder about where I land, the question at the forefront of my mind is if you know your child is autistic, is there a way to approach religion/ religious matters in a way that will be helpful and considerate for them?
Great question! I think being aware that they may see things more literally / concretely than other children at their developmental state is important... and sort of scaffold for them how to not be quite as literal about it. (like being very direct about "this is a story that some people believe is true but we believe ___"). And being open to questions that may surprise you with how insightful / bold they are -- like these kids can have a great BS reader and not be afraid to name what they see! But also, all of this really depends on the individual. Curious to know what you think and find out is helpful for them!
Sep 17, 2023·edited Sep 17, 2023Liked by Christine Greenwald
Christine, remember Rudolf and the Island of Misfit Toys? Loved that Christmas cartoon because that was me. You were an alien; I was a misfit; pretty much the same experience you describe.
My experience of religion as an adult also exactly parallels yours as a child and young adult--first a true believer and then a true skeptic and deconstructor, always digging into the details looking for a coherent, consistent system of truth. Finally, I have come to my own ever-growing understanding of cosmic reality based on my personal spiritual experiences, which is a far more meaningful and satisfying adventure of discovery. I try to share what I learn, not so others will “believe” as I do but in the hope what I share might help springboard them into their own unique and inwardly satisfying journey.
I absolutely cannot wait to hear your take on conspiracy religion. I think that kind of faith springs from fear and suspicion of everything differing from the adherent’s belief system as somehow demonically inspired (black and white faith leads to believing if it’s not god at work, it must be the “enemy” and they can save the world if only they can ferret out what “the enemy” is doing and defeat them). It’s triggering to us rational people because in our culture it has taken on the form of irrational, violent, political-religious white supremacist bullying that we (justifiably) fear will be turned against us as the enemy. And maybe we still have some of their beliefs as part of our own shadow, which sparks multiple emotional responses in us. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on conspiracy religion as a professional in this field of inner exploration. I love this series; it fascinates me too!
I think I only know how to be friends with other misfits 😅 And such a difference in sharing your journey not to tell everyone to be like you, but so that they can find their own unique journey! I wish even Christianity could have been presented to me that way (just because that's my faith of origin - I wish this for all religion, too)
I've been reading a great book called American Fascism - I'll send a photo of it to you! Lots of thoughts about conspiracy religion and basically a conspiracy to use religion as a way to gain political power. It's published in 2006 and COMPLETELY relevant for where we are today. Yes to the black and white thinking, finding enemies in anyone not like you (which now includes... us, who aren't religious like them). Ooh and the shadow! Man Chuck, you're just hitting on all the things! Feel free to contribute your own piece to this endeavor! ;)
Thank you for being open with your experience. I’m a little emotional after finding this sight. I was diagnosed asd at the age of 45. Most of my adult life I fell for peer pressure, Alcohol, and substance abuse just to fit in somewhere. The last 15yrs I’ve been in and out of recovery. Every time I tried to discovery my neurodivergents I was shut down by twelve step beliefs and told I don’t want recovery. The belief in gods or god isn’t logical to me. If I can’t dissect it in my head it causes trauma. At times recovery felt like an excorism and it forced me out of recovery time and time again. This time I had to find recovery 1st and then seek outside help. I was exiled from aa once I was diagnosed because they don’t want autism awareness to spread in those rooms?! If getting properly diagnosed saves lives in recovery and it isn’t accepted, it may be taking life and adding to the trauma we experience with faith. I have lots of faith today just not in monotheism. My faith is in logic, science, Buddhism, and our planet now and wouldn’t have it any other way. Neurodivergents need acceptance in recovery rooms(ALL OF THEM). When recovery refuses to evolve with science it causes extra pressure on autistics trying to find peace and embrace who we are. I would love to help this movement in anyway I can. Took me 45yrs to understand what love is. Love is giving compassion without anything in return. Thanks to properly getting diagnosed I’m no long masked and am DIVERSE and divergent. I’m coming up on 4yrs without alcohol and drugs thanks to a beautiful plant and the neurodivergents before me. Autistic pride ALL DAY er day
Hi Andrew - I'm so glad you found this and I'm glad you're here! Your story of your younger adult years sounds like it definitely fits a neurodivergent / autistic narrative. I'm so sorry that 12 step programs shut you down like that so hard. So they didn't like that you couldn't get on board with the "Higher Power" thing? I am not super familiar with 12 step culture (somewhat, but not tons) but that feels terrible to be so shut down / shut out of it even though you clearly were just trying to find health and recovery for yourself.
Love your faith: "in logic, science, Buddhism, and our planet now and wouldn’t have it any other way" -- Amen!! (lol). Congrats on being unmasked and a proud autistic / neurodivergent human, and extra congrats on 4 years of sobriety!!!
Thanks for this, Christine. I became an atheist after 28 years as an adult believer, and am now pursuing autism diagnosis late in life. Sometimes I read about autism and it doesn't fit, other times it seems spot on. Your description of the System-Thinking Skeptic is very relatable, especially the second paragraph. Also, the "high control" I experienced as a believer came from actually believing, as I tried to subject every aspect of my life to Jesus, down to my very thought life. The ensuing identity crisis is complex, and the sense of autonomy theft is strong. Thanks again for sharing!
I came back here to respond to another comment and realized I never replied to you! I read yours and thought about it though back when you wrote. The part you wrote about actually believing and trying to subject every aspect of your life to Jesus sounds like a very autistic thing to do!
Thank you so much for your reply and support Christine! Sorry I posted a duplicate. I’m kind of a caveman when it comes to electronics. Lost 20yrs not wanting to accept who I’ve always been and it cost me growth within asd and felt like a coma. Now that I have the right asd therapist I can work to acknowledge the ptsd from RT and move on. I’m a proud mentor for self destructive asd young adults now and trying to improve their quality of life. You would be a great mentor for our people and our world needs more people just like you! Just wanted to thank you again for opening up about a very sensitive topic that has been thrown under the rug for way to long. My heart goes out to those undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. Being diagnosed was a key to understanding my whole life
Thanks for opening up a space to think and discuss the intersection of neurodivergence and religious trauma. I think the most revelatory explanation for my experience in high demand religion and the subsequent religious trauma I’m struggling to heal has been the acknowledgment of the ways in which I have fawned to belong within the religious communities I was raised in and those I self-selected to be in. Fawning, or merging my own desires and interest with those in authority, and being a committed believer who became a missionary before studying ministry leadership in my late twenties was all a self-preservation act. I knew how to be and what to say in Christian spaces because it was oh so predictable. And I didn’t stand out as awkward around people I presumed were my peers. Even my special interest in history (narrowed down to church history when needed) wasn’t seen as an obsession because it could be wielded to educate or reassure those in the church of their supremacy and self-importance. At the same time, as a systems thinker, I couldn’t do anything but challenge the moral and intellectual status quo of said communities. While my commitment to truth was greater than my loyalty to egos, I was still afraid of being ostracized. In evolutionary terms, that is a certain death. So I poked and prodded where I could without truly rocking the boat. That is, until my frustration with participating in a harmful system and feeling alone within a religious community where no one seemed to mirror the intensity of my concerns led to my exit/exile. After leaving, I told a person with whom I worked at this mega church and whom I trusted that I no longer wanted to operate within the framework and with the tools I had been taught and trained to operate with and under. She got offended and explicitly told me that I was being prideful for thinking I was better than the institution. And her rejection cut deeper than all the others because I had thought we were cut from the same cloth. In my experience, that neurodivergent trait of living life in extremes and desiring radical stuff butting against the neurotypical drive for mediums and compromises complexifies religious trauma. Because this difference and the shame we pick up for being too much or not enough is something we already experience and normalize in childhood, it’s even harder to notice how toxic it is when we experience it as adults in a religious institution.
I really appreciate your comment, Pascale! I resonate with this so much: "While my commitment to truth was greater than my loyalty to egos, I was still afraid of being ostracized" -- and understanding that psychologically / evolutionarily in terms of certain death! So well said with the neurodivergent drive for extremes and being radical (in whatever way we believe is the right radical way) and the history of feeling shame for too much / not enough-ness. Also, so frustrating / sad about the person at the mega church who just thought you were being prideful for having the nerve to critically, morally examine an institution... sigh. Thank you thank you for sharing your story!
I'm experiencing a long, painful progression from a fawn profile, led by fear, trust in those "greater" than me, and a strong desire to somehow fit in, to a skeptical, logic-driven life, filled with the need to make it good and logical. I have always tried desperately to make it all make sense plus help people see how to live out their beliefs. I assumed that where it didn't make sense I just didn't get it yet. I am coming to believe that maybe the fault isn't mine, but the belief itself. Such a big shift!
"I assumed that where it didn't make sense I just didn't get it yet. I am coming to believe that maybe the fault isn't mine, but the belief itself." Yaahhhsssss!!! Such a big shift, and so much more freedom in this!
Thank you for sharing your story! I would say that, in my growing-up, I was the All-In Believer with a Fawn Response papering over a Systems-Thinking Skeptic, if that makes sense.
I think we all had some serious suspension of disbelief going on, yeah?? Makes sense to me!
Yes, that does make sense to me. I think my journey was a lot like that also.
Hi, although I can relate with so much of this that I'm beginnig to wonder about where I land, the question at the forefront of my mind is if you know your child is autistic, is there a way to approach religion/ religious matters in a way that will be helpful and considerate for them?
Great question! I think being aware that they may see things more literally / concretely than other children at their developmental state is important... and sort of scaffold for them how to not be quite as literal about it. (like being very direct about "this is a story that some people believe is true but we believe ___"). And being open to questions that may surprise you with how insightful / bold they are -- like these kids can have a great BS reader and not be afraid to name what they see! But also, all of this really depends on the individual. Curious to know what you think and find out is helpful for them!
Christine, remember Rudolf and the Island of Misfit Toys? Loved that Christmas cartoon because that was me. You were an alien; I was a misfit; pretty much the same experience you describe.
My experience of religion as an adult also exactly parallels yours as a child and young adult--first a true believer and then a true skeptic and deconstructor, always digging into the details looking for a coherent, consistent system of truth. Finally, I have come to my own ever-growing understanding of cosmic reality based on my personal spiritual experiences, which is a far more meaningful and satisfying adventure of discovery. I try to share what I learn, not so others will “believe” as I do but in the hope what I share might help springboard them into their own unique and inwardly satisfying journey.
I absolutely cannot wait to hear your take on conspiracy religion. I think that kind of faith springs from fear and suspicion of everything differing from the adherent’s belief system as somehow demonically inspired (black and white faith leads to believing if it’s not god at work, it must be the “enemy” and they can save the world if only they can ferret out what “the enemy” is doing and defeat them). It’s triggering to us rational people because in our culture it has taken on the form of irrational, violent, political-religious white supremacist bullying that we (justifiably) fear will be turned against us as the enemy. And maybe we still have some of their beliefs as part of our own shadow, which sparks multiple emotional responses in us. Can’t wait to hear your thoughts on conspiracy religion as a professional in this field of inner exploration. I love this series; it fascinates me too!
I think I only know how to be friends with other misfits 😅 And such a difference in sharing your journey not to tell everyone to be like you, but so that they can find their own unique journey! I wish even Christianity could have been presented to me that way (just because that's my faith of origin - I wish this for all religion, too)
I've been reading a great book called American Fascism - I'll send a photo of it to you! Lots of thoughts about conspiracy religion and basically a conspiracy to use religion as a way to gain political power. It's published in 2006 and COMPLETELY relevant for where we are today. Yes to the black and white thinking, finding enemies in anyone not like you (which now includes... us, who aren't religious like them). Ooh and the shadow! Man Chuck, you're just hitting on all the things! Feel free to contribute your own piece to this endeavor! ;)
Thank you for being open with your experience. I’m a little emotional after finding this sight. I was diagnosed asd at the age of 45. Most of my adult life I fell for peer pressure, Alcohol, and substance abuse just to fit in somewhere. The last 15yrs I’ve been in and out of recovery. Every time I tried to discovery my neurodivergents I was shut down by twelve step beliefs and told I don’t want recovery. The belief in gods or god isn’t logical to me. If I can’t dissect it in my head it causes trauma. At times recovery felt like an excorism and it forced me out of recovery time and time again. This time I had to find recovery 1st and then seek outside help. I was exiled from aa once I was diagnosed because they don’t want autism awareness to spread in those rooms?! If getting properly diagnosed saves lives in recovery and it isn’t accepted, it may be taking life and adding to the trauma we experience with faith. I have lots of faith today just not in monotheism. My faith is in logic, science, Buddhism, and our planet now and wouldn’t have it any other way. Neurodivergents need acceptance in recovery rooms(ALL OF THEM). When recovery refuses to evolve with science it causes extra pressure on autistics trying to find peace and embrace who we are. I would love to help this movement in anyway I can. Took me 45yrs to understand what love is. Love is giving compassion without anything in return. Thanks to properly getting diagnosed I’m no long masked and am DIVERSE and divergent. I’m coming up on 4yrs without alcohol and drugs thanks to a beautiful plant and the neurodivergents before me. Autistic pride ALL DAY er day
Hi Andrew - I'm so glad you found this and I'm glad you're here! Your story of your younger adult years sounds like it definitely fits a neurodivergent / autistic narrative. I'm so sorry that 12 step programs shut you down like that so hard. So they didn't like that you couldn't get on board with the "Higher Power" thing? I am not super familiar with 12 step culture (somewhat, but not tons) but that feels terrible to be so shut down / shut out of it even though you clearly were just trying to find health and recovery for yourself.
Love your faith: "in logic, science, Buddhism, and our planet now and wouldn’t have it any other way" -- Amen!! (lol). Congrats on being unmasked and a proud autistic / neurodivergent human, and extra congrats on 4 years of sobriety!!!
Thanks for this, Christine. I became an atheist after 28 years as an adult believer, and am now pursuing autism diagnosis late in life. Sometimes I read about autism and it doesn't fit, other times it seems spot on. Your description of the System-Thinking Skeptic is very relatable, especially the second paragraph. Also, the "high control" I experienced as a believer came from actually believing, as I tried to subject every aspect of my life to Jesus, down to my very thought life. The ensuing identity crisis is complex, and the sense of autonomy theft is strong. Thanks again for sharing!
I came back here to respond to another comment and realized I never replied to you! I read yours and thought about it though back when you wrote. The part you wrote about actually believing and trying to subject every aspect of your life to Jesus sounds like a very autistic thing to do!
Thanks so much for sharing your experience!
Thank you so much for your reply and support Christine! Sorry I posted a duplicate. I’m kind of a caveman when it comes to electronics. Lost 20yrs not wanting to accept who I’ve always been and it cost me growth within asd and felt like a coma. Now that I have the right asd therapist I can work to acknowledge the ptsd from RT and move on. I’m a proud mentor for self destructive asd young adults now and trying to improve their quality of life. You would be a great mentor for our people and our world needs more people just like you! Just wanted to thank you again for opening up about a very sensitive topic that has been thrown under the rug for way to long. My heart goes out to those undiagnosed or misdiagnosed. Being diagnosed was a key to understanding my whole life
Joshua David Crosland here… loved your post