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I am also a milennial (albeit barely), and thankfully my baby and toddler parenting years were before Instagram was a thing. I suppose I always cared more about parenting than mothering, if that makes sense. I like the way I raised my child, much as I like the way I was raised, though both cases would definitely be improved if my mother and I as a parent had figured out our respective traumas earlier.

I was raised Christian, but a different enough form of Christianity that I don't think it's comparable to the Christian motherhood ideals you talk about. I was no longer Christian by the time I had my child. I liked my mother's take on the god stories, though: god-father and god-mother is the parent of everyone.

I find that most motherhood talk doesn't really talk much about the hardest part of mothering: how do you know when to pull back and when not to. This looks like something most mothers struggle with, but it's not a big conversation, as far as I have noticed. I tried to raise an independent kid, and I worry that while the attitude is there, the skill set is not. I suspect this is really common, but I don't know for sure.

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I try to stay away from parenting / "momfluencer" accounts on Instagram because I don't find it helpful, generally! I like that way of thinking about it - parenting as opposed to mothering. I think I identify with that idea. But then societal expectations (that get passed down into our subconsciouses) of who should be responsible for what tasks, etc still exist even in my home, so I think the "mothering" aspect is something I can't ignore.

Love that: "god-father and god-mother is the parent of everyone." I'm still wondering how to teach my kids about religion and spirituality in a way that makes sense both to me and to them. They're so young still I haven't had to make too many decisions. Same with the knowing when to pull back and when not too - much easier to figure out when they're this little ... much harder I think when they're in their teen years! Is that the age you noticed was particularly difficult around that question?

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I felt like knowing when to back up and not started to get really hard at 8-10. I definitely made mistakes in both directions! We're four parents, and we all did. But I think women may get conditioned to fail more in the doing too much direction. And yes, we're all of us conditioned to gendered parenting to some degree, it's inescapable. Men and women receive very different sanctions too, for different things, so even if someone magically started with no preconceived notions, we would be affected by that pretty fast.

Talking about religion with kids is so difficult. My son had a while at six or seven or so when his paternal grandma had gotten him very interested in Jesus, but explaining to him that people who liked Jesus the most tended to expect monotheism was certainly a challenge. In the end my answer to his endless "but WHY though" had to be that "well, I don't really understand that either, but it's how they feel about it". I didn't want to make something up, but it also didn't feel like a good enough explanation, and I suspect if said grandma ever heard of my answer she would not feel it was very respectful.

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I'm really excited for that age - when they start thinking for themselves and asking great questions "but WHY though" - but I should also probably prepare myself for the unique challenges!

Ugh, too true about mothers receiving sanctions that fathers don't.

My husband is a pastor (in the liberal denomination Disciples of Christ here in the US) so while our beliefs overlap on a lot of things, religious education will be impossible to avoid, and I don't foresee the religion talks being particularly easy! I do like your answer to your kid. Sometimes things just don't have great answers, regardless if grandma wants them wrapped up nice and tidy...

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Yeah - we can prepare, but we can't be prepared. Having thought and talked about how to explain the basics is bound to be good, though! How old are the kids now?

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The oldest is almost 3, and the youngest is 7 months! So we’ve got a ways to go.

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I think it's great parenting that you're thinking ahead while also acknowledging that you can't know how it will play out!

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Pam here, not Don.

I often tell the story of how Jesus tried to ruin our marriage. It was 1973 and Don and I had been married six years with three children under five. I was 31 and Don was 33. We had only recently come to believe in Jesus and were enthusiastically trying to do everything right. Up until then we had had an egalitarian marriage with decisions hammered out between us. The system was working well. Then came The Church.

We were encouraged to attend a five week seminar with a preacher called Ken Poure. He told us that in a Christian household the father was the Head, the mother was the Helper and the children had better behave. Mostly what I remember is his illustration of how that worked in real life. When it was time for decision making, each of the children got one vote, the Helper (Mother) got that number plus one and the Head got all those numbers - plus one. Talk about Catch 22! The Head always come out on top.

Don loved this arrangement. (Who wouldn't?) For the next two years, we tried living by Poure's teaching. It was a disaster! At last, fed up, I threatened divorce. The year was now 1975 and Women's Lib was making itself known. The final straw came one day when I was at home, after having cleaned, cooked, and picked up the children, having a glass of wine and a 'consciousness-raising session" with a fellow mother who had brought over her children for a play date, when Don came home from work. He was leaving on a business trip the next day. He went into the bedroom and come out again, furious. He yelled, "You haven't packed my suitcase!" I yelled back, "Pack it yourself!"

Things went downhill from there, with sessions at a Marriage and Family therapist taking the place of divorce filing. Eventually we emerged again into the light of day, with our new plans for an egalitarian marriage in place. No thanks to Jesus. ;)

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WOW!! That's fascinating. Things were going along smoothly (I mean, given that you had 3 kids under 5 lol... as smooth as can be) until you got a little indoctrination by The Church. That voting system!! 😡 What a bucket of frustration.

Sounds like your marriage and family therapist helped guide you back to some semblance of sanity and the way you used to do things - egalitarian-style! Perhaps ignorant question: was the "consciousness-raising session" a thing in the 70s? I love that idea!

I am really fascinated by the idea that you had the same husband throughout but he was so different towards you based on the things he was told / allowed to believe about the amount of power he had. Did he feel like a different person during those two years? To me this really seems to illustrate how much harm these teachings in particular can do - taking perhaps perfectly decent men (see Rick's comment below, too) and turning them into people we really don't want to be around.

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Yes consciousness-raising was a thing, a good thing, but disruptive of our relationships. A lot of upheaval in those days. Still, women could never have gotten to 'Me, Too' without it. We read all the same books - Betty Freidan, Kate Millet, Simone de Beauvoir, Germaine Greer. Then we'd get together over wine and talk. We were all Christians and felt we were doing something BAD. Eventually, Christian women started to be heard.

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Ohhh I bet it was disruptive! And so challenging to the status quo of a Christian woman too, especially with how hard they were coming down on the whole submissive thing.

A year or two ago, I watched the Netflix miniseries Mrs. America about Phyllis Schlafly and the feminist movement of the 70s and the ERA - it was really interesting but I wish I knew more about the era!

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As for my husband, I think he felt relieved when he learned he didn't have to shoulder all the burden. He was doing it because he thought that was what Jesus wanted. And also, what I wanted. Which was true. I didn't really want to be in charge. It was easier just to criticize from the sidelines. I wanted him to do all the dirty work and balance the checkbook, as well. But, with the help of the counselors, I realized that my laziness was unbalancing the relationship and if I wanted it to get better, I would have to step in a do my bit. Hooray for counselors! We both felt better after than was settled and now we've been married 55 years. There have been ups and downs but no downs as bad as that year, 1978.

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Happy ending! It's good to know how your husband felt about the situation, too. Hooray indeed for counselors! As a counselor I usually feel allergic to seeing couples (it's not something I enjoy doing), but your and a few others' stories lately will have me reconsidering!

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My wife and I, married now for 48 years, were blissfully wed in the heyday [I double-checked to make sure I spelled that term correctly] of Bill Gothard, "The Total Woman," and the seedbed that later bore "purity culture." She bore 2.5 children while I was in seminary (boy #3 popped after graduation [having squeezed 4 years of study into five]). The saving grace in our marriage is most likely the fact that, while we were in seminary, the Godly Wives monthly meeting was abhorrent to her (and one of her friends). Rather than attend the meetings - even though they went to campus - they went to a lounge to watch Mork and Mindy. In truth, most of the crap (mostly in our early [say, thirty]) years had much more to do with her having married a selfish, controlling asshole than with the "Godly Woman/Mother/Wife" lies.

My wife, a classically-trained soprano with an incredible voice, sadly abandoned her gifts because she always felt torn between her love of and gift for singing and the church-demanded rhetoric of "only doing it for the glory of God." She cried in my arms just a few months ago as she angrily grieved the loss of a different, unknowable life in which she could have just sung to the glory of her voice. She hasn't sung publicly for more than 25 years. Thank you evangelical church and myopic husband!

Her willingness to stay with me (sorely tried at times) has given us the gift of some happy years as we "gracefully age" together.

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Oh Rick, thanks for sharing your story. I'm biased to like you a lot because I know the current you, but I'm guessing I wouldn't have liked the you of 40 years ago very much, huh? Do you wonder how much of the "self, controlling asshole" parts of you were due to implicit and explicit teachings that men were the ones who were supposed to be in charge and had the right to do whatever they wanted to? Versus like... your innate personality? Given how much your changed your mind on things... I would say it's not your innate personality... but like I said, I'm biased in your favor since I know current you ;)

I love that your wife hung out with her friend and avoided the "Godly Wives" meeting (blechhh!). And I'm so sad for her that she gave up her singing gifts because of this idea that we can't ever enjoy and be proud of the real gifts we have. Oooh. What a sorrow.

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I was a frightened, insecure and, as a result, angry many who had frightened, insecure and angry brothers sired by a frightened, insecure and angry father who never allowed himself to be known. Back to our CPE genograms, the fear and anger preceded the Christian teachings by years. In family systems theory my anger expressed against my dad was my reaction to not being able to differentiate myself. I did not have a "me." I and my brothers were my dad's "mini-me-s."

I'm glad you met me when you did and not all those years earlier even though the selfish asshole covered it up pretty well in public. I appreciate that you like the current me!

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I suppose a fine example of men falling victim to patriarchy / toxic masculinity (not to use the overused phrase, but I don't have a better term off the top of my head). Full of anger and insecurity and afraid to really be known. It's a hard and shallow (as in, not depth-full) way to live. :(. You've done a lot of work on yourself!

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Oh, Christine, I’m so sorry for this: “…the smallness of self we were supposed to have as girls and women… to lose your sense of self and serve a higher good.” Sadly, I know women, you and our friend Katye among them, who could be brilliant pastors and leaders, but even today in most churches it’s not allowed outside of women’s ministries. You are still expected to play it small. It breaks my heart for all women beaten down by patriarchy and forced to live in a Normal Rockwell painting!

I have no doubt traditional woman/motherhood is more stultifying, but Christian fatherhood ain’t so grand either. The perfect man slaves away 9 or 10 hours a day at some unfulfilling corporation that cares zero about him, trying to be a “good provider,” never able to express emotions or engage in genuine personal growth, and missing the life of his growing family all day long. I remember thinking, “Is this all I am, a ‘good provider’”? And if you’re not, you’re a failure!

Both genders miss out on opportunities for personal growth and self-expression because of stifling and rigid gender roles and unbalanced sharing of work and family responsibilities. I think we can imagine ways to handle both responsibilities better and more equally and also maybe change capitalism to quit working so damn much and pay us more, for the betterment of both genders and their families. And also find ways (better community and extended family support?) so both can have some frequent “me time” to discover and nurture themselves away from their responsibilities. I’m certain these things would result in more fulfilled parents and children and less family stress, domestic violence, alcohol/drug issues, etc.

And we haven’t even talked about the Christian apartheid that keeps women and men from being friends and learning from and supporting one another. Each is cut off from the other 50% of the human race! God forbid they ever socialize and grow from knowing and understanding each other because SEX is bound to happen if men and women mix! Can’t we be bigger than that?!!

Christianity and patriarchy are the perfect formula for stunted human development. Both genders will gain immensely by overthrowing them and finding better ways to live and raise families, ways that give each a chance to be more fully human.

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Thank you, Chuck, for your thoughtful comment! I find even outside the church, it's so hard to throw off the very-ingrained notion that I am "supposed" to play it small. It is so hard to feel okay playing bigger and having confidence in your voice when you've been taught for so long your voice doesn't count.

The Christian Man ideal is so limiting as well, as you say! That's such a sad-feeling existence: "Is this all I am, a 'good provider'?" And to not be allowed to be in touch with your own emotions about yourself, your family, and whether you actually like this path that you've been told is the "right" one for you.

I've been thinking lately how lonely it feels raising families in our own little siloes. We even have my mom out here in Ohio (she moved this year) and it's way better than not having her here - but just noticing how difficult it is to have a robust sense of community. My best friends are scattered across the country and forging close, new relationships is such a challenge. Especially when you live in a place that is politically pretty counter to what you are :P

Oh gosh isn't that the truth about the conservative Christian segregation of the sexes! I loved having a bunch of male friends in [my liberal] seminary - they were so much fun. (speaking of community...). So refreshing to exist outside of conservative Christianity!

YES we would all benefit from overthrowing patriarchy / Christian patriarchy! Life is so much richer outside of it!

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Makes me so sad, Christine, to hear you still struggle with playing it small. Christian brainwashing can be so insidious! I hear you about the loneliness of the nuclear family; our culture was better in that one regard before our time when the extended family lived with us and helped with the kids. Thanks also for noting in your comment (between the lines) that it’s patriarchy in society generally, not just Christian patriarchy, that is so destructive, as is now disgustingly clear with states passing draconian laws controlling women’s healthcare and putting women at risk. Just heard a story about a woman who can no longer get methotrexate for severe rheumatoid arthritis because it is also an abortifacient and she is child-bearing age. Our culture is very psychologically sick with the mental illness of patriarchy right now, and I am so glad you are a voice against it and for women (and men!) determined to heal and live their fullest lives!

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My writing is a place where I'm trying to not play it so small anymore - and starting my own counseling practice this year was another exercise in that! But yes the brainwashing - cultural and Christian - is so very real.

Ugh I have been hearing about stories like the methotrexate! Infuriating. Hopefully if we continue to be very loud with our voices, we can turn back the tide against this movement.

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I am Gen Z (I'm 24) and also deconstructed my faith in my early twenties, so I feel like the Ideal Christian Mother stereotype didn't have as much influence on me as the Good Christian Girl idea did (which I talked about on this week's post on my Substack). I would imagine that still being stuck in purity culture and evangelical thought would make the prospect of motherhood even harder. As it is, I know I'm not ready to be a mom yet, but I do want to adopt in the future (unless my future partner wanted to do a surrogate pregnancy herself/themselves; but I will never physically give birth). Even in Gen Z, so many evangelical women I know, folks I knew from youth group, are getting married so early and even though their Instagrams definitely look like you describe, I know from the stories of exvangelical millennials who married young that this is not the full story. Whenever I become a mom, I think that pushing back against that narrative will include something I'm doing right now and will always continue to do--to write about my experiences honestly and vulnerably, and to be in tune with my own body and communicate my needs to others.

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The Good Christian Mother felt so unattainable / foreign / boring to me that it definitely made me not want motherhood anytime soon when I was in my 20s! (That wasn't the only influence - and I am also glad I was older when I had kids). So true that exvangelical millennials who married young have shed a lot of insight onto what might be behind the picture-perfect imagery of marrying young.

I love that your and my generation is trying hard to push back against the narrative of how things have traditionally been and trying to forge our own way. I'm grateful to read the experiences of others who are courageous enough to share honestly and vulnerably!

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