Do you find yourself trying to meditate or just have a time of reflection and discover one of those songs has been on in the background of your subconscious for probably hours? 🙋🏼♀️
This is so well said, Christine: “I want them to know they are loved, that they belong in this universe, and that our character and the way we treat and care for other people is important.” That feels very much like the archetypal vision every parent has for their child.
Two contrasting thoughts: (1) As a college kid with little religious background, I often failed to recognize Christian references and influences in Western literature, history, art, and music unless the professor pointed it out. It helps to have some Christian awareness, given its pervasiveness in our culture. (2) Why is it necessary to have any faith at all? It seems like a human cultural expectation that everybody has a religion. But why? We don’t have to choose a baseball or football team or a political party. We can be unaffiliated or independent. Why is it so necessary to “believe” in something? It’s like belief and choosing “sides” or a viewpoint in everything is almost a cultural requirement. But we can just think about spirituality and other topics, if they are important to to us, without “believing” anything or choosing a side or viewpoint, right. I appreciate that culture is shifting that way now.
Contrasting thoughts but can also completely go together. I want an understanding of other religions (even the ones that show up less in our very Christian / Western - centric culture!), but I probably don't believe much of those! It is interesting to recognize that we're shifting (quite abruptly!) from having to believe in something, to being ok not believing in something.
Christine, these are all good, and important, questions and deserve to be asked. But I think you have a Categorical Fallacy in your intellectualizing. I.e., God and the Universe are two distinctive entities and shouldn't be conflated. Don't confuse the children.
Thanks for your thoughts! Though I don't think God and the Universe are two distinctive entities, but I am sure I'm defining them differently than you are. I don't see God or Jesus in the traditional Christian way (though still feel a little murky what God means to me!). God, as I conceptualize God, is more the "ground of all being" and the fabric of everything, holding everything together, which I want to believe is essentially Love. I don't literally mean the Universe like the compilation of all the stars and planets, etc, but more like... all that is. Much more metaphysical.
Confusing but this is also why I wouldn't try and explain to my kids while they're still this young
Hi, Christine. I have read and re-read this post multiple times but have read this reply to Pamela Urfer only just today and am so grateful you took the time to lay out your thoughts on the nature of God versus the Universe. (Just the sort of thing my brain will get caught on and ruminate and ruminate over.) I appreciate your intellectual honesty in admitting that you *want to believe* that the ground of all being is essentially love. I appreciate how you're not preaching, here, declaring that the ground of all being *is* love. No, you're saying you would like to believe that that's the case. I really appreciate how you've left space for people who don't experience the ground of all being as being loving in nature.
Speaking of love and loving, I want to say I realize I owe you an e-mail. My apologies. I am struggle with some really extreme circumstances right now and a lot of energy is being expended trying to just hold myself together. I've got a prompt resting on my desk, though, a hard copy print out (old person that I am, I guess!) of the most recent e-mail you wrote me. ;)
Please know that I have been reading all your posts, even if not commenting. A couple of your posts were "too good," if that makes sense (e.g. the one on neurodivergence and religious trauma). That post was so good that my brain got too overwhelmed for me to be able to post anything. What you wrote was so brilliant, it spurred me to have about 1.4 million different insights. And then I just kind of shut down. Because I was having too many insights to function! That's how good your post was!!!!!
Finally, I just wanted to say I care. I'm not sure I knew that you are married to a pastor. If I put myself in your shoes, well, it just seems like that would be incredibly difficult. My heart goes out to you. I don't think I as a religious trauma survivor would be able to remain married to someone who was religious, much less in a leadership position aligned with some religious organization. But getting divorced would, of course, be wrenching, also. I think I would feel very torn. And what drains our energy faster than that? Plus, you're raising little children. That alone? Wow. I don't know how you do it. And you seem to be doing it with empathy, compassion, and kindness. Hats off to you. As well as much, much secular comfort. I hope you are doing OK.
I've been wrestling with this a bit. My husband, who appears to have no religious trauma, is interested in the idea of reading different religious texts as ethics lessons to teach our son (currently only 14 months old). But as I recently explained to him, the thought of studying anything religious just makes me shut down. So right now, I don't know what we'll end up doing, but I of course still want to teach our son good values.
I hear that! It's really tricky to navigate post-religious trauma, and how it *might* be possible to introduce religion / faith ideas (which are undeniably an important part of cultures across the world!) to our kids in a way that doesn't feel super yucky.
I hope you can find a way that feels comfortable to you, but I'm positive that you'll teach good values with or without religion!
Christine - I love all these questions and honest hopes for your kiddos. I also would be crushed if my kid joined a fundamentalist cult one day 💔
Also, this was very relatable. “I admit there’s a huge satisfaction and feeling of kicking my “training” in the face when I can unabashedly demonstrate how far I have departed.” 🤣🤣
Do you find yourself trying to meditate or just have a time of reflection and discover one of those songs has been on in the background of your subconscious for probably hours? 🙋🏼♀️
hahahaha I know the feeling!!!
Relatable 😅
This is so well said, Christine: “I want them to know they are loved, that they belong in this universe, and that our character and the way we treat and care for other people is important.” That feels very much like the archetypal vision every parent has for their child.
Two contrasting thoughts: (1) As a college kid with little religious background, I often failed to recognize Christian references and influences in Western literature, history, art, and music unless the professor pointed it out. It helps to have some Christian awareness, given its pervasiveness in our culture. (2) Why is it necessary to have any faith at all? It seems like a human cultural expectation that everybody has a religion. But why? We don’t have to choose a baseball or football team or a political party. We can be unaffiliated or independent. Why is it so necessary to “believe” in something? It’s like belief and choosing “sides” or a viewpoint in everything is almost a cultural requirement. But we can just think about spirituality and other topics, if they are important to to us, without “believing” anything or choosing a side or viewpoint, right. I appreciate that culture is shifting that way now.
Thanks, Chuck! The "archetypal vision," yes!
Contrasting thoughts but can also completely go together. I want an understanding of other religions (even the ones that show up less in our very Christian / Western - centric culture!), but I probably don't believe much of those! It is interesting to recognize that we're shifting (quite abruptly!) from having to believe in something, to being ok not believing in something.
Thanks for your thoughts!
Yes to studying all religions!! It can be a fascinating and uplifting study (and for me now, deeply appreciating but not adhering to any of them.)
Christine, these are all good, and important, questions and deserve to be asked. But I think you have a Categorical Fallacy in your intellectualizing. I.e., God and the Universe are two distinctive entities and shouldn't be conflated. Don't confuse the children.
Thanks for your thoughts! Though I don't think God and the Universe are two distinctive entities, but I am sure I'm defining them differently than you are. I don't see God or Jesus in the traditional Christian way (though still feel a little murky what God means to me!). God, as I conceptualize God, is more the "ground of all being" and the fabric of everything, holding everything together, which I want to believe is essentially Love. I don't literally mean the Universe like the compilation of all the stars and planets, etc, but more like... all that is. Much more metaphysical.
Confusing but this is also why I wouldn't try and explain to my kids while they're still this young
OK. I see what you mean.
Hi, Christine. I have read and re-read this post multiple times but have read this reply to Pamela Urfer only just today and am so grateful you took the time to lay out your thoughts on the nature of God versus the Universe. (Just the sort of thing my brain will get caught on and ruminate and ruminate over.) I appreciate your intellectual honesty in admitting that you *want to believe* that the ground of all being is essentially love. I appreciate how you're not preaching, here, declaring that the ground of all being *is* love. No, you're saying you would like to believe that that's the case. I really appreciate how you've left space for people who don't experience the ground of all being as being loving in nature.
Speaking of love and loving, I want to say I realize I owe you an e-mail. My apologies. I am struggle with some really extreme circumstances right now and a lot of energy is being expended trying to just hold myself together. I've got a prompt resting on my desk, though, a hard copy print out (old person that I am, I guess!) of the most recent e-mail you wrote me. ;)
Please know that I have been reading all your posts, even if not commenting. A couple of your posts were "too good," if that makes sense (e.g. the one on neurodivergence and religious trauma). That post was so good that my brain got too overwhelmed for me to be able to post anything. What you wrote was so brilliant, it spurred me to have about 1.4 million different insights. And then I just kind of shut down. Because I was having too many insights to function! That's how good your post was!!!!!
Finally, I just wanted to say I care. I'm not sure I knew that you are married to a pastor. If I put myself in your shoes, well, it just seems like that would be incredibly difficult. My heart goes out to you. I don't think I as a religious trauma survivor would be able to remain married to someone who was religious, much less in a leadership position aligned with some religious organization. But getting divorced would, of course, be wrenching, also. I think I would feel very torn. And what drains our energy faster than that? Plus, you're raising little children. That alone? Wow. I don't know how you do it. And you seem to be doing it with empathy, compassion, and kindness. Hats off to you. As well as much, much secular comfort. I hope you are doing OK.
Yes to all of this!
I've been wrestling with this a bit. My husband, who appears to have no religious trauma, is interested in the idea of reading different religious texts as ethics lessons to teach our son (currently only 14 months old). But as I recently explained to him, the thought of studying anything religious just makes me shut down. So right now, I don't know what we'll end up doing, but I of course still want to teach our son good values.
I hear that! It's really tricky to navigate post-religious trauma, and how it *might* be possible to introduce religion / faith ideas (which are undeniably an important part of cultures across the world!) to our kids in a way that doesn't feel super yucky.
I hope you can find a way that feels comfortable to you, but I'm positive that you'll teach good values with or without religion!
Now I've got Everything's Alright in my head - and I'm not complaining!
Charlie Hall? Or is that just my religious trauma talking? 😅
Christine - I love all these questions and honest hopes for your kiddos. I also would be crushed if my kid joined a fundamentalist cult one day 💔
Also, this was very relatable. “I admit there’s a huge satisfaction and feeling of kicking my “training” in the face when I can unabashedly demonstrate how far I have departed.” 🤣🤣
I grew up watching Jesus Christ superstar on or around Easter 🤣🤣 and my parents wonder why I departed...
I watched it for the first time AFTER deconstructing all the faith things, and I was still like 😮 “oh are we allowed to say that?!?” 🤣
😂 my parents are complicated people - they also wonder how my brother became a glam rock star 😅 like...how are you confused??