Thank you for laying this all out so clearly. It makes so much sense especially with the love-bombing followed by the devaluation. Evangelicalism draws you in with the message of how much God loves you, then sort of flips it over and says he doesn't actually love you, he can't stand you because you're contaminated with sin and he had to kill his son to even tolerate you in his presence. It makes you question everything: what is love then, if God can't love someone unless they're "justified" before him? That sounds a lot like *conditional* love to me. And I really see it as a theological error, namely the penal substitution atonement theory, but that's getting too detailed for this comment now haha. For me it's just heartbreaking that the entire system of evangelicalism is built on this.
A book I liked that helped me understand gaslighting too was If God Still Breathes, Why Can’t I?: Black Lives Matter and Biblical Authority, by Angela N. Parker. It showed how the doctrines of biblical inerrancy and infallibility are used by white evangelicals to gaslight any interpretation of Scripture that doesn't fit into their supremacist theological framework.
Oooh that sounds like a really interesting book! I need to take note of it!
It's kinda stunning how *obvious* it is that the love evangelicals describe is 100% conditional, yet we're told over and over that this is the definition of unconditional love. Whaaaat???
Speaking of clarity, that is a GREAT comment, Sarah! In one brief amazing paragraph, you laid out the fundamental problem with basing the whole Christian belief system on substitutionary atonement.
Haha wow, thank you Chuck. I've been reading and thinking a lot about these things to figure out what I believe. The teachings of Brian Zahnd have been especially helpful to me regarding the atonement topic, and his book, Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.
Thanks Christine. Tough subject but important for psychological freedom. I think those of us who are people pleasers may struggle most with gaslighters and manipulators. It helps if we learn our own boundaries and believe in and speak our own truth!
Yes, definitely! Also, gaslighters are skilled at detecting which people will be more susceptible to their tricks, and often it's people who have experienced some significant trauma in the past (and may be coping / adapting by people pleasing!)
That brings up a question. I always thought of those tricks as narcissistic, but I think I am mistaken. Is a narcissist a manipulative harmful personality type and gaslighting is a tool they use? But people who are not narcissists, who might even be nice people, might still gaslight others? Like Trump is a malignant narcissist with harmful intentions, but pastors who convince us we are evil sinners do so with good intentions and may not even realize they are gaslighting us?
I think that's a really important distinction! We learned in the training that while narcissists (as in, the clinically diagnosable personality disorder) often use gaslighting as a technique, other people can use it too. The trainer used the term "gaslighers" throughout to refer to people who have pretty clear malicious intents, but I personally think it's important to clarify that people can also engage in gaslighting without being a full-blown "gaslighter." (and yes about Trump vs everyday pastors, though there's also other pastors with not-good intentions who I'm sure intentionally gaslight!)
Despite all the good intentions a church may have to preach the gospel of Jesus and saving souls there are a myriad of ways a person can be traumatized, abused and gaslit. Hear the words to the hymns and “praise” music. Actually LISTEN to the comments, asides, personal stories that are the vehicles of emotional bondage and abuse. I’ve been out for over 20 years but still find myself bothered by the abusive words, ideas and “godly teachings “ it’s insidious.
The way that you hear/interpret all those songs and stories etc when you're in the church, vs how it all sounds once you're out, is worlds apart! Amazing how not being in the groupthink changes so much about your perspective! I hear ya on still being bothered, years later...
Thank you for writing this, it resonates a lot. I got out of an abusive marriage 3 years ago and it took me 3 times to leave because he was so intentional with his abuse and this was scary accurate. I don’t even really identify as a Christian anymore for a few reasons but the religious trauma from the Baptist church scarred me so much on top of him. This is the blog I wrote when I left ~
I read your post - thank you for sharing that. That must have been incredibly difficult to leave, and I'm so sorry you received such awful treatment from the church in terms of their lack of support and total not-understanding of the dynamics of abuse! Definitely see how you were scarred by religious trauma. I'm really glad you got out of that marriage 💜
Thank you for laying this all out so clearly. It makes so much sense especially with the love-bombing followed by the devaluation. Evangelicalism draws you in with the message of how much God loves you, then sort of flips it over and says he doesn't actually love you, he can't stand you because you're contaminated with sin and he had to kill his son to even tolerate you in his presence. It makes you question everything: what is love then, if God can't love someone unless they're "justified" before him? That sounds a lot like *conditional* love to me. And I really see it as a theological error, namely the penal substitution atonement theory, but that's getting too detailed for this comment now haha. For me it's just heartbreaking that the entire system of evangelicalism is built on this.
A book I liked that helped me understand gaslighting too was If God Still Breathes, Why Can’t I?: Black Lives Matter and Biblical Authority, by Angela N. Parker. It showed how the doctrines of biblical inerrancy and infallibility are used by white evangelicals to gaslight any interpretation of Scripture that doesn't fit into their supremacist theological framework.
Oooh that sounds like a really interesting book! I need to take note of it!
It's kinda stunning how *obvious* it is that the love evangelicals describe is 100% conditional, yet we're told over and over that this is the definition of unconditional love. Whaaaat???
Speaking of clarity, that is a GREAT comment, Sarah! In one brief amazing paragraph, you laid out the fundamental problem with basing the whole Christian belief system on substitutionary atonement.
Haha wow, thank you Chuck. I've been reading and thinking a lot about these things to figure out what I believe. The teachings of Brian Zahnd have been especially helpful to me regarding the atonement topic, and his book, Sinners in the Hands of a Loving God.
Thanks Christine. Tough subject but important for psychological freedom. I think those of us who are people pleasers may struggle most with gaslighters and manipulators. It helps if we learn our own boundaries and believe in and speak our own truth!
Yes, definitely! Also, gaslighters are skilled at detecting which people will be more susceptible to their tricks, and often it's people who have experienced some significant trauma in the past (and may be coping / adapting by people pleasing!)
That brings up a question. I always thought of those tricks as narcissistic, but I think I am mistaken. Is a narcissist a manipulative harmful personality type and gaslighting is a tool they use? But people who are not narcissists, who might even be nice people, might still gaslight others? Like Trump is a malignant narcissist with harmful intentions, but pastors who convince us we are evil sinners do so with good intentions and may not even realize they are gaslighting us?
I think that's a really important distinction! We learned in the training that while narcissists (as in, the clinically diagnosable personality disorder) often use gaslighting as a technique, other people can use it too. The trainer used the term "gaslighers" throughout to refer to people who have pretty clear malicious intents, but I personally think it's important to clarify that people can also engage in gaslighting without being a full-blown "gaslighter." (and yes about Trump vs everyday pastors, though there's also other pastors with not-good intentions who I'm sure intentionally gaslight!)
Thank you for clarifying, Christine. 😊
Despite all the good intentions a church may have to preach the gospel of Jesus and saving souls there are a myriad of ways a person can be traumatized, abused and gaslit. Hear the words to the hymns and “praise” music. Actually LISTEN to the comments, asides, personal stories that are the vehicles of emotional bondage and abuse. I’ve been out for over 20 years but still find myself bothered by the abusive words, ideas and “godly teachings “ it’s insidious.
The way that you hear/interpret all those songs and stories etc when you're in the church, vs how it all sounds once you're out, is worlds apart! Amazing how not being in the groupthink changes so much about your perspective! I hear ya on still being bothered, years later...
Thank you for writing this, it resonates a lot. I got out of an abusive marriage 3 years ago and it took me 3 times to leave because he was so intentional with his abuse and this was scary accurate. I don’t even really identify as a Christian anymore for a few reasons but the religious trauma from the Baptist church scarred me so much on top of him. This is the blog I wrote when I left ~
https://wildlyredeemed.wordpress.com/2020/02/09/dont-tell-me-i-didnt-try-done-with-domestic-abuse-choosing-divorce-trigger-warning/
I read your post - thank you for sharing that. That must have been incredibly difficult to leave, and I'm so sorry you received such awful treatment from the church in terms of their lack of support and total not-understanding of the dynamics of abuse! Definitely see how you were scarred by religious trauma. I'm really glad you got out of that marriage 💜
Wonderful overview of these subjects. Thank you for creating this resource!
Well said.
Thank you for the book reference. Sounds like a must-read!